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Thread: Why the US wants to delegitimize the Iranian elections

  1. #46
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    Actually, I've linked and cited nearly every post I've made while you have continued to offer opinions based upon assumptions. Even while conceding the US gov't is perfectly capable of taking these actions, you still refuse to entertain the possibility that this is exactly what is happening now with Iran. And this statement of yours: If the neocons still had as much power as you seem to think they do, then why are they all still saying that Obama's making America less safe with his policies?--is what is ridiculous. I wonder how many times you yourself have criticized the neocons for continuing attacks on Democrats even while the Dems are bending over with their naked asses in the air to please the them?
    Yeah, you've presented links, but nothing that shows a clear line to the U.S. and destabilizing Iran's current election. In other words, there's no smoking gun.

    And you're right, I have complained about the GOP making themselves the Party of No and their off-the-wall attacks. And I'll continue to do that. But the problems with policy don't just rest with the GOP's complaining. Some of the policy fuck ups are simply on Obama, and some of them are coming from Dems in Congress who are more socially and/or fiscally conservative.

    Bush had a Republican-controlled Congress for six years that walked in lockstep with everything he wanted, without question. The Dems, clearly, aren't doing that with Obama. So any real policy opposition isn't proof of neocon dominance.

  2. #47
    Elite Member Cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    Lol, funny that. The same sorts responsible for Florida Farce 2000 are the same ones fomenting trouble in Iran. I know I've posted this a couple of times already but I'm going to continue posting it until the implications sink in:

    Late last year, Congress agreed to a request from President Bush to fund a major escalation of covert operations against Iran, according to current and former military, intelligence, and congressional sources. These operations, for which the President sought up to four hundred million dollars, were described in a Presidential Finding signed by Bush, and are designed to destabilize the country’s religious leadership.
    ...
    “The Finding was focussed on undermining Iran’s nuclear ambitions and trying to undermine the government through regime change,” a person familiar with its contents said, and involved “working with opposition groups and passing money.”
    Preparing the Battlefield, The New Yorker, July 7, 2008
    ThinkProgress had a quote that mostly debunked that:
    'U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker, reacting to Hersh's story on CNN's Late Edition, said: "I can tell you flatly that U.S. forces are not operating across the Iraqi border into Iran."
    Think Progress » Hersh: U.S. escalating covert ops against Iran.

    Frankly all that Presidential Finding affords is money to support the opposition (which as I'll explain later in this post doesn't translate to supporters of Mousavi). That doesn't explain the massive support Mousavi has generated- the US certainly didn't have a hand in that. How could we? We can't incite millions of people to take to the streets and protest a fraudulent election. They did this on their own. They were won over by Mousavi, expected to win, and upon hearing about the fraudulent situation of the election, they took to the streets. And rightly so.

    Moreover, if the US were going to sponsor / support a Presidential candidate, wouldn't they have picked a different candidate to back? If Mousavi is a more watered down version of Amidemijahd, then why wouldn't the US have chosen to back Reza Shah, the exiled Prince who is actually in favor of democracy in Iran? Reza is currently considering returning to Iran so why wouldn't they have supported him? The whole idea just doesn't stand up to reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    Actually, I've linked and cited nearly every post I've made while you have continued to offer opinions based upon assumptions.
    But you haven't addressed my post where I pointed out that many of your linked sources have been debunked or presented inaccurate information:
    Why the US wants to delegitimize the Iranian elections

    By most accounts, that Presidential Finding covered funding as such:
    'The article, quoting unidentified administration officials, said the primary objectives of the covert activity included gathering intelligence on Iran's nuclear program as well as assisting Iranian opposition groups in their bid to undermine the current regime. Among the opposition groups allegedly receiving cash and other assistance are ethnic Balochi dissidents in southern Iraq as well as established resistance groups such the Mujaheddin-e Khalq. '
    U.S. Is Said to Expand Covert Operations in Iran - washingtonpost.com

    That had nothing to do with the movement that swelled up around Mousavi. He wasn't even a candidate then. And so far as I can disern, none of the opposition groups supported by Bush's Presidential Finding are supporting Musavi. Further, an article (linked below) says that the funding primarily supported an organization called Jundullah. As far as I can discern there is zero contact between the Jundullah and Mousavi's campaign.
    The Raw Story | U.S. escalating covert operations against Iran - report

    My stance? Could the US have had a role in hand-picking Mousavi to oppose Amidemijahd? Sure. But it is highly doubtful , in my opinion, because I think if the US were going to meddle, they would have picked a more pro-democracy candidate. And could the US have possible anticipated or created the curent situation in Iran? Absolutely not. This movement is based on Mousavi's platform resonating with the Iranians and them going into action to ensure a fair election.

  3. #48
    Elite Member L1049's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    Do you HAVE to join to follow? I don't want to join either, but where are you following it? Do you have a link?
    If you go to the twitter homepage, click on the 'search' link at the bottom. Just type in 'iranelection' or 'iran9' for the good feeds. Most of the info seems to be coming in on those two 'feeds.'

  4. #49
    Elite Member L1049's Avatar
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    There's a really good post over at fark that sort of 'outlines' the situation so far. It was written by user Tatsuma (I really don't like the guy, but what he's done in the past few days has been absolutely amazing and I have to give him huge props for it). It's a wall of text, but it's interesting:

    As of 18PM on the East Coast, all twitter posts about the army being involved are false. Warning, new twitter feeds are most likely government members trying to spread misinformation, ignore them! Also, there is a handful of good twitter feeds, but please do not publicize their usernames, they are in enough danger as it is and they don't need more publiclity. Those in the know will c/p their entries. Major timeline overhaul, including what has unfolded in the last few hours.

    This seems to be helping quite a few people, so I'll go ahead and repost it in every threads with some adjustments. Sorry, this has reached the level of TL;DR but I really am trying to cram the most relevant information and speculation only. Everything is updated as events unfold, especially the timeline and what will happen in the future....
    The entire thing is long, so I'll link the fark thread:
    FARK.com: (4452509) A Who's Who of Iran politics (plus the Iran Election/Revolt Discussion Thread is turned up to ELEVEN) ----Very first post.

  5. #50
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Also, the live-blogging at HuffPo by Nico Pitney is pretty good:
    Iran Updates (VIDEO): Live-Blogging The Uprising

  6. #51
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    i've also heard they're telling people to change their location on twitter to tehran and to adjust the time zone accordingly. it will help protect the people actually posting in iran.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  7. #52
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    ^Works for me! Viva la revolucion!

  8. #53
    Elite Member L1049's Avatar
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    If anyone is using twitter, user PersianKiwi (among others) has provided invaluable info.
    http://twitter.com/persiankiwi

    Another person I'm following is:
    http://twitter.com/Change_for_Iran

  9. #54
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    pictures posted by christiane amanpour:

    Christiane Amanpour's Photos - Iran Revolts | Facebook
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  10. #55
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    ^the number of bloody faces and people in those pictures...

  11. #56
    Friend of Gossip Rocks! buttmunch's Avatar
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    I guess much of the west is in on this since France, England, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland, etc. etc. etc. have all condemned the situation as well.
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
    --Sinclair Lewis

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cali View Post
    ThinkProgress had a quote that mostly debunked that:
    'U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker, reacting to Hersh's story on CNN's Late Edition, said: "I can tell you flatly that U.S. forces are not operating across the Iraqi border into Iran."
    Think Progress » Hersh: U.S. escalating covert ops against Iran.

    Frankly all that Presidential Finding affords is money to support the opposition (which as I'll explain later in this post doesn't translate to supporters of Mousavi). That doesn't explain the massive support Mousavi has generated- the US certainly didn't have a hand in that. How could we? We can't incite millions of people to take to the streets and protest a fraudulent election. They did this on their own. They were won over by Mousavi, expected to win, and upon hearing about the fraudulent situation of the election, they took to the streets. And rightly so.

    Moreover, if the US were going to sponsor / support a Presidential candidate, wouldn't they have picked a different candidate to back? If Mousavi is a more watered down version of Amidemijahd, then why wouldn't the US have chosen to back Reza Shah, the exiled Prince who is actually in favor of democracy in Iran? Reza is currently considering returning to Iran so why wouldn't they have supported him? The whole idea just doesn't stand up to reason.


    But you haven't addressed my post where I pointed out that many of your linked sources have been debunked or presented inaccurate information:
    Why the US wants to delegitimize the Iranian elections

    By most accounts, that Presidential Finding covered funding as such:
    'The article, quoting unidentified administration officials, said the primary objectives of the covert activity included gathering intelligence on Iran's nuclear program as well as assisting Iranian opposition groups in their bid to undermine the current regime. Among the opposition groups allegedly receiving cash and other assistance are ethnic Balochi dissidents in southern Iraq as well as established resistance groups such the Mujaheddin-e Khalq. '
    U.S. Is Said to Expand Covert Operations in Iran - washingtonpost.com

    That had nothing to do with the movement that swelled up around Mousavi. He wasn't even a candidate then. And so far as I can disern, none of the opposition groups supported by Bush's Presidential Finding are supporting Musavi. Further, an article (linked below) says that the funding primarily supported an organization called Jundullah. As far as I can discern there is zero contact between the Jundullah and Mousavi's campaign.
    The Raw Story | U.S. escalating covert operations against Iran - report

    My stance? Could the US have had a role in hand-picking Mousavi to oppose Amidemijahd? Sure. But it is highly doubtful , in my opinion, because I think if the US were going to meddle, they would have picked a more pro-democracy candidate. And could the US have possible anticipated or created the curent situation in Iran? Absolutely not. This movement is based on Mousavi's platform resonating with the Iranians and them going into action to ensure a fair election.
    Cali, one self-serving statement from the US Ambassador to Iraq is not a debunking. You place far too much trust in 'authorities'. Hersch has a proven track record.

    What do you think it means to pour money into a foreign country in a "bid to undermine the current regime"?

    From sputniks link to the images from Christiane Amanpour:





    LOL! What is wrong with these pictures?

  13. #58
    Elite Member cmmdee's Avatar
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    Very sad pictures.

  14. #59
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    Cali, one self-serving statement from the US Ambassador to Iraq is not a debunking. You place far too much trust in 'authorities'. Hersch has a proven track record.

    What do you think it means to pour money into a foreign country in a "bid to undermine the current regime"?

    From sputniks link to the images from Christiane Amanpour:





    LOL! What is wrong with these pictures?
    you don't think it's a bit excessive for so many cops to be on one person?
    and you did see the other pics, right? the ones with the people beaten to a bloody pulp?


    and i've looked at your links, i still see no 'proof', honestly you sound a bit like a conspiracy theorist. i'm the first one to point fingers at US interventionism but for once you have an administration who seems to have finally realised that the US does more harm than good when it tries to get involved, even when it has good intentions. and you know countries have been able to rig elections without US help before, right?
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  15. #60
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    LOL! What is wrong with these pictures?
    Do you mean the Farsi word for 'Police' isn't the same as in English?

    I keep my mind open to all possibilites. We may not be involved, or we may be....time will certainly tell. History shows that.
    It's no longer a dog whistle, it's a fucking trombone


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