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Thread: Why the US wants to delegitimize the Iranian elections

  1. #31
    Elite Member McJag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Maybe that will be the start of throwing off a theocracy, and achieving a real democracy.

    I would like to say that Americans can take a lesson from the Iranians on elections, if reports are accurate 85% of the population voted. They put us to shame.

    And the courage of the people that actually are protesting is humbling. We could use some of that spirit here.
    Honey,that is the whole truth and nothing but! We are spoiled silly.
    Those people are so courageous, it makes you want to weep for them.
    My hope is that thousands of innocent people don't get slaughtered. I fear this might get really lethal,really fast.
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    Elite Member Cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McJag View Post
    My hope is that thousands of innocent people don't get slaughtered. I fear this might get really lethal,really fast.
    It already has- the official death count is 7, but from reading on Twitter, it is much, much higher. Lots of users on there report seeing 3+ people killed themselves. And the secret police are attacking university dorms on a nightly basis, injuring and killing students.

  3. #33
    Elite Member lalala's Avatar
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    One would like to find such detailed and concerned reports in the US media over the civilian victims in Iraq/Afghanistan and Pakistan...

  4. #34
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    moussavi won the elections and the extent of fraud by the election commission is staggering and the results are pretty much impossible. there was massive, retarded fraud. they could have gone for a more bushian 59-41, that might have been believable. but that would have been too subtle for them.
    moussavi won, and the elections commission actually called him to tell him that, but told him that the result had to be vetted (i.e. approved by clerics) before it could be announced. then suddenly the results change and ahmedinejad is declared winner...

    this has nothing to do with being pro- or anti- US.
    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    68% of the population is under 30, and high youth turnout has always favoured reformists. also, the economy is going down the toilet, which usually leads to people hating or at least wanting the current government out.

    the extent of ahmedinejad's oppression (or STFU doctrine, as a friend of mine calls it) has actually knocked the wind out of the fuck america sentiment that was once so popular.

    there is also no evidence to suggest that pre-election polls were concentrated in tehran or cities or did not account for rural polling.

    iran voted overwhelmingly by 70% for the reformist khatami in 1997, a huge landslide victory with a huge turnout .
    since t hen, voting for the reformists has gone down but only because they have been prevented from standing for election.
    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    i think the real danger is the one pointed out by reza aslan: the fear that iran is becoming egypt, a country where the government is increasingly militarised and authoritarian, and resorts to shameless electoral rigging to get what it wants. that's what explains all the previously warring sectors coming together against ahmedinejad.
    Thank you. You are exactly right regarding everything, couldn't have said it better myself. I love that the US has supposedly orchestrated all the drama when our journalists aren't even allowed inside anymore. They are being shut inside their hotels and only the Iranian press is being allowed to report inside Iran now. The protests are huge and I can't believe anyone would say that Moussavi had very little support, obviously you can see that he did and he does.

    And you are right about Egypt, everyone knows that the system is corrupt there and their vote doesn't matter.
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  5. #35
    Elite Member Cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lalala View Post
    One would like to find such detailed and concerned reports in the US media over the civilian victims in Iraq/Afghanistan and Pakistan...
    Its different though- those are countries where are having a military conflict with. This is a revolution brewing. And the media has seriously failed on this anyway- they barely covered it over the weekend and they still aren't covering the full scope of whats going on.

  6. #36
    Elite Member L1049's Avatar
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    This entire situation is fascinating in a sense of how the internet is "changing" the way countries have to operate in times like this (I don't know how to explain it).
    I've been glued to the #iranelection and #iran9 twitter feeds (and I fucking hate twitter.) It's damn depressing when I've gotten more info from following Twitter and Fark threads about Iran, than I have from any mainstream media source. I would honestly recommend anyone interested to go into some of the Iran threads over at fark. Some of the info/perspectives there are interesting.

    Here is a site that 'analyzed' the numbers a bit:
    FiveThirtyEight: Politics Done Right: Iran Does Have Some Fishy Numbers

    This blog also has amazing pictures:
    Tehran 24

    It was kind of funny to see how some freepers reacted to these protests. One person basically said, "Idiots. IMIDIJIHAD (sic) won now get over it." Yet these are the same people that bitch about Obama's birth certificate I honestly think the thought of DinnerJacket ('president dude's name who I can't spell's nickname) kind of 'scares' them. He's been the proverbial "boogie man" of the middle east and without him, they have one less person to demonize.

    This situation actually makes me wonder if something similar would've happen if McCain won over Obama at a 2:1 margin despite Obama being ahead in most pre-election polls.

  7. #37
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    But if the U.S. was trying to rig Iran's election why did Ahmadinejad win in a landslide? He's the person that the U.S. wants out of power
    They do not necessarily want him out of power, just branded illegitimate so the neocons have an exuse to push for an attack on Iran.
    You have to remember Mousavi entered the race very late in the game. He surprised everyone by suddenly coming out of retirement. Mousavi is connected to American neocon Michael Ledeen, engineer of the Niger Uranium forgeries, which were partially responsible for getting us into Iraq. All Mousavi had to do to sow discord is make claims the election was stolen, then thousands turn out in protest, the gov't is forced into a crackdown the western media can present as repression and PRESTO! Causus belli, bought and paid for by the good ol' Cee Eye Ay.

    Let's get this straight about where I stand: Because although it allows limited elections, the Islamic republic is not a democracy. It is not a legitimate government of the people. It is a theocracy born only 30 years ago in the blood of secular martyrs, in which:
    - The sovereign is a "Supreme Leader" who claims absolute power by divine right and is chosen, apparently for life, by a tiny clerical patriarchy.
    - The regime restricts ballot access based on strict ideological criteria.
    - Women's rights and voices are brutally suppressed.
    - Speech is heavily restricted.
    - Popular democratic reforms advanced by elected representatives are shot down by the "Supreme Leader."
    - There is a history of crackdowns and mass executions (one in which Mousavi's had a large role).
    - People are executed for adultery and homosexuality.
    - The young are stifled by medieval conventions enforced by the armed and uniformed bullies of the state.

    Even if a majority supports the illegitimate oppression of a minority, it's still wrong. If I were forced to wear a hijab every day against my will, I would march to bring down the regime, even if 63 percent of my compatriots supported Ahmedinejad for his hardline policies. It would be like fighting for civil rights in the American South, even though the majority of the people there were for the status quo.

    That being said, I am in the United States, and I know that the best thing for my country to do, both government and people, is to stay neutral in a situation in which
    - we have no standing, given our history;
    - our government's indisputable track record has been one of disastrous aggression against the people of Iran;
    - the only things we can do will make things worse
    - there is a war faction among us who have been trying to instigate military action against Iran for years.

    Because all of the above points about the regime can be true, and yet all of the following are also probably true:
    - Mousavi's claims to election victory may have been lies designed to engineer the perception of election fraud, with the intent of prompting the government's reaction.
    - The CIA and Co. are no doubt trying to instigate a "Green Revolution." The Axis-of-Evil hardliners are still among us and would like nothing better than to find the pretext for a murderous bombing campaign.

    *CIA's Iranian Plan**** : Information Clearing House - ICH

  8. #38
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    i had refused to join twitter but finally relented but only so i can follow the iran situation. some of those posts are really heartwrenching.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

  9. #39
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    They do not necessarily want him out of power, just branded illegitimate so the neocons have an exuse to push for an attack on Iran.
    You have to remember Mousavi entered the race very late in the game. He surprised everyone by suddenly coming out of retirement. Mousavi is connected to American neocon Michael Ledeen, engineer of the Niger Uranium forgeries, which were partially responsible for getting us into Iraq. All Mousavi had to do to sow discord is make claims the election was stolen, then thousands turn out in protest, the gov't is forced into a crackdown the western media can present as repression and PRESTO! Causus belli, bought and paid for by the good ol' Cee Eye Ay.

    Let's get this straight about where I stand: Because although it allows limited elections, the Islamic republic is not a democracy. It is not a legitimate government of the people. It is a theocracy born only 30 years ago in the blood of secular martyrs, in which:
    - The sovereign is a "Supreme Leader" who claims absolute power by divine right and is chosen, apparently for life, by a tiny clerical patriarchy.
    - The regime restricts ballot access based on strict ideological criteria.
    - Women's rights and voices are brutally suppressed.
    - Speech is heavily restricted.
    - Popular democratic reforms advanced by elected representatives are shot down by the "Supreme Leader."
    - There is a history of crackdowns and mass executions (one in which Mousavi's had a large role).
    - People are executed for adultery and homosexuality.
    - The young are stifled by medieval conventions enforced by the armed and uniformed bullies of the state.

    Even if a majority supports the illegitimate oppression of a minority, it's still wrong. If I were forced to wear a hijab every day against my will, I would march to bring down the regime, even if 63 percent of my compatriots supported Ahmedinejad for his hardline policies. It would be like fighting for civil rights in the American South, even though the majority of the people there were for the status quo.

    That being said, I am in the United States, and I know that the best thing for my country to do, both government and people, is to stay neutral in a situation in which
    - we have no standing, given our history;
    - our government's indisputable track record has been one of disastrous aggression against the people of Iran;
    - the only things we can do will make things worse
    - there is a war faction among us who have been trying to instigate military action against Iran for years.

    Because all of the above points about the regime can be true, and yet all of the following are also probably true:
    - Mousavi's claims to election victory may have been lies designed to engineer the perception of election fraud, with the intent of prompting the government's reaction.
    - The CIA and Co. are no doubt trying to instigate a "Green Revolution." The Axis-of-Evil hardliners are still among us and would like nothing better than to find the pretext for a murderous bombing campaign.

    *CIA's Iranian Plan**** : Information Clearing House - ICH
    The neocons aren't in power anymore, so they can push for whatever they want.

    And no matter how late Mousavi entered the race the debates were contentious and many people were openly showing their discontent with some of Iran's more hardline policies.

    And I would be shocked if Mousavi wasn't claiming the election was rigged after the shady things that were going on in some of the provinces. There were shady activities happening in Florida in 2000, which led people to say the election was stolen. Hell, Gore took the case to the Supreme Court. But you want to believe that because there were shady activities in Iran's election it's somehow the U.S.'s fault? Hey, whatever.

  10. #40
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    i had refused to join twitter but finally relented but only so i can follow the iran situation. some of those posts are really heartwrenching.
    Do you HAVE to join to follow? I don't want to join either, but where are you following it? Do you have a link?
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

  11. #41
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    kingcap-- (my answers in bold)

    The neocons aren't in power anymore, so they can push for whatever they want.

    Don't fool yourself. The neocons still have plenty of power and they are using it, or else Obama wouldn't daily be following in their policy footsteps and bending over backwards to cover up their misdeeds.

    And no matter how late Mousavi entered the race the debates were contentious and many people were openly showing their discontent with some of Iran's more hardline policies.

    Who doubts this? But save your hearts and flowers, Mousawi isn't a worthy recipient. He's as hardline as they come, his "progressive" campaign slogans notwithstanding.

    And I would be shocked if Mousavi wasn't claiming the election was rigged after the shady things that were going on in some of the provinces. There were shady activities happening in Florida in 2000, which led people to say the election was stolen. Hell, Gore took the case to the Supreme Court. But you want to believe that because there were shady activities in Iran's election it's somehow the U.S.'s fault? Hey, whatever.

    Lol, funny that. The same sorts responsible for Florida Farce 2000 are the same ones fomenting trouble in Iran. I know I've posted this a couple of times already but I'm going to continue posting it until the implications sink in:

    Late last year, Congress agreed to a request from President Bush to fund a major escalation of covert operations against Iran, according to current and former military, intelligence, and congressional sources. These operations, for which the President sought up to four hundred million dollars, were described in a Presidential Finding signed by Bush, and are designed to destabilize the country’s religious leadership.
    ...
    “The Finding was focussed on undermining Iran’s nuclear ambitions and trying to undermine the government through regime change,” a person familiar with its contents said, and involved “working with opposition groups and passing money.”
    Preparing the Battlefield, The New Yorker, July 7, 2008


    But hey, if you want to believe the US won't use this 'situation' as an excuse to attack Iran when Dick Cheney and Co. have been salivating to do just that for years.....whatever helps you sleep at night. And I may have been an aggressive critic of Obama's these last months, here and elsewhere, but I don't think he's evil enough to want to do such a thing. His actions, however, lead me to believe he will eventually cave in to whatever arm-twisting the neocons have in store.
    Last edited by Sasha; June 16th, 2009 at 07:04 PM.

  12. #42
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    Do you HAVE to join to follow? I don't want to join either, but where are you following it? Do you have a link?
    i don't know if you get the trended topics and stuff if you aren't a member. but the iran stuff is mostly here: Twitter: What are you doing?
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  13. #43
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    I'm no tinfoil hat wearer. But you don't have to be to know that history proves that the US has been covertly involved in more foreign elections and overthrows than can be counted on two hands, so to completely dismiss it as unreasonable is just as foolish as to insist 100% that it is happening this time.

    If you have only read the American side of these stories, you have no idea just how many times the US has intervened, on what side and with what aims.

    We have done things of this nature and in this manner time and again. We may be doing it now, and we may not be. Time will expose the truth. It's certainly not out of the realm of possiblity.



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  14. #44
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    kingcap-- (my answers in bold)

    The neocons aren't in power anymore, so they can push for whatever they want.

    Don't fool yourself. The neocons still have plenty of power and they are using it, or else Obama wouldn't daily be following in their policy footsteps and bending over backwards to cover up their misdeeds.

    And no matter how late Mousavi entered the race the debates were contentious and many people were openly showing their discontent with some of Iran's more hardline policies.

    Who doubts this? But save your hearts and flowers, Mousawi isn't a worthy recipient. He's as hardline as they come, his "progressive" campaign slogans notwithstanding.

    And I would be shocked if Mousavi wasn't claiming the election was rigged after the shady things that were going on in some of the provinces. There were shady activities happening in Florida in 2000, which led people to say the election was stolen. Hell, Gore took the case to the Supreme Court. But you want to believe that because there were shady activities in Iran's election it's somehow the U.S.'s fault? Hey, whatever.

    Lol, funny that. The same sorts responsible for Florida Farce 2000 are the same ones fomenting trouble in Iran. I know I've posted this a couple of times already but I'm going to continue posting it until the implications sink in:

    Late last year, Congress agreed to a request from President Bush to fund a major escalation of covert operations against Iran, according to current and former military, intelligence, and congressional sources. These operations, for which the President sought up to four hundred million dollars, were described in a Presidential Finding signed by Bush, and are designed to destabilize the country’s religious leadership.
    ...
    “The Finding was focussed on undermining Iran’s nuclear ambitions and trying to undermine the government through regime change,” a person familiar with its contents said, and involved “working with opposition groups and passing money.”
    Preparing the Battlefield, The New Yorker, July 7, 2008


    But hey, if you want to believe the US won't use this 'situation' as an excuse to attack Iran when Dick Cheney and Co. have been salivating to do just that for years.....whatever helps you sleep at night. And I may have been an aggressive critic of Obama's these last months, here and elsewhere, but I don't think he's evil enough to want to do such a thing. His actions, however, lead me to believe he will eventually cave in to whatever arm-twisting the neocons have in store.
    If the neocons still had as much power as you seem to think they do, then why are they all still saying that Obama's making America less safe with his policies? And why were they so pissed off about his speech to the Arab world, which they called the 'Apology Tour?' If they still had the clout you think they do, ALL of the GITMO detainees would still be at GITMO, instead of being released to other countries. Not to mention, we'd be rattling sabres with North Korea.

    Sasha, you can continue to believe that the U.S. is completely responsible for all of Iran's current troubles, but I'm not. Hell, I'll even say that the U.S. has been trying to unseat Ahmadinejad for the last few years, and has been laying some seeds to do so. But to say that the U.S. is completely responsible for the current election clusterfuck, and not take into account that, maybe, some of the people are tired of the hardline policies, is just ridiculous. And you haven't presented any concrete evidence to back your theory up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    If the neocons still had as much power as you seem to think they do, then why are they all still saying that Obama's making America less safe with his policies? And why were they so pissed off about his speech to the Arab world, which they called the 'Apology Tour?' If they still had the clout you think they do, ALL of the GITMO detainees would still be at GITMO, instead of being released to other countries. Not to mention, we'd be rattling sabres with North Korea.

    Sasha, you can continue to believe that the U.S. is completely responsible for all of Iran's current troubles, but I'm not. Hell, I'll even say that the U.S. has been trying to unseat Ahmadinejad for the last few years, and has been laying some seeds to do so. But to say that the U.S. is completely responsible for the current election clusterfuck, and not take into account that, maybe, some of the people are tired of the hardline policies, is just ridiculous. And you haven't presented any concrete evidence to back your theory up.
    Actually, I've linked and cited nearly every post I've made while you have continued to offer opinions based upon assumptions. Even while conceding the US gov't is perfectly capable of taking these actions, you still refuse to entertain the possibility that this is exactly what is happening now with Iran. And this statement of yours: If the neocons still had as much power as you seem to think they do, then why are they all still saying that Obama's making America less safe with his policies?--is what is ridiculous. I wonder how many times you yourself have criticized the neocons for continuing attacks on Democrats even while the Dems are bending over with their naked asses in the air to please the them?

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