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Thread: Why Rick Warren is a fascist asshole, and an albatross around Obama's neck

  1. #121
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Nobody is saying that one is more important than the other. All civil rights struggles are of equal importance.

    Let me clarify this once and for all, I understand where people like Grim, Fluffy and others are coming from. You believe that all forms of oppression fall under the same umbrella and that the differences don't matter. But the differences do matter. The differences aren't all that matters, but they are just as important as the similarities.

    All oppressed groups, be it blacks, gays, women and other minority groups have gone through different forms of oppression that are relevant to those specific groups. To act as if those differences are irrelevant is impossible.

    For example, all minority groups in America country can marry each other, but gays can't. Now that's a difference in the forms of oppression for the minority groups. That doesn't mean that this particular difference is irrelevant just because other minority groups can marry each other while gays can't.

    All groups deserve equality and to be free from injustice. That point isn't in dispute. My big issue is the saying 'gay is the new black.' Because for gay to be the new black, then gays would have to go through the same experiences as blacks. And the reverse would be true if the saying was 'black is the new gay.' Blacks would have to go through the same experiences as gays. No oppressed group can say that they're the 'new' other oppressed group unless they are going through the same experiences. Beyond that, we're all in total agreement.

  2. #122
    Elite Member Aella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    Nobody is saying that one is more important than the other. All civil rights struggles are of equal importance.

    Let me clarify this once and for all, I understand where people like Grim, Fluffy and others are coming from. You believe that all forms of oppression fall under the same umbrella and that the differences don't matter. But the differences do matter. The differences aren't all that matters, but they are just as important as the similarities.

    All oppressed groups, be it blacks, gays, women and other minority groups have gone through different forms of oppression that are relevant to those specific groups. To act as if those differences are irrelevant is impossible.

    For example, all minority groups in America country can marry each other, but gays can't. Now that's a difference in the forms of oppression for the minority groups. That doesn't mean that this particular difference is irrelevant just because other minority groups can marry each other while gays can't.

    All groups deserve equality and to be free from injustice. That point isn't in dispute. My big issue is the saying 'gay is the new black.' Because for gay to be the new black, then gays would have to go through the same experiences as blacks. And the reverse would be true if the saying was 'black is the new gay.' Blacks would have to go through the same experiences as gays. No oppressed group can say that they're the 'new' other oppressed group unless they are going through the same experiences. Beyond that, we're all in total agreement.
    Speaking for myself, that's not at all what I was saying. Did that not come through in my post?

    I wouldn't say 'gay is the new black' either. Actually, I recently found a fascinating post by a (white) Lesbian blogger on the topic:

    Why no one will ever hear me saying, “Gay is the new Black” at Lesbian Dad
    "Remember to always be yourself. Unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

    "The only thing more expensive than education is ignorance." -Benjamin Franklin

  3. #123
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aella View Post
    But the fact all anti-discrimination movements are not equal does not mean one is more important than the other, or that any form of prejudice is not problematic.
    This is the part of your post that I was addressing. I wanted to clarify that I wasn't saying that one civil rights struggle was more important or that any form of prejudice wasn't an issue.

    That was a good article, too.

  4. #124
    Elite Member Aella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    This is the part of your post that I was addressing. I wanted to clarify that I wasn't saying that one civil rights struggle was more important or that any form of prejudice wasn't an issue.
    Oh, I get it. It's just that I thought my previous paragraph made it clear I understood that there is, indeed, a difference between the tactics/objectives/origins of each movement.

    And the bit you actually quoted, well, I wasn't necessarily addressing a specific post here (I haven't recently reread the whole thread, so maybe I'm missing something). More like the people who are dismissive of gay rights movements, or who say 'now is not the right time' or similar rhetoric. Because I'd argue that there is no such thing as the 'right' time for social change, and that even if the goal is not achieved, any public discourse/visible dissent is a step in the right direction.
    "Remember to always be yourself. Unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

    "The only thing more expensive than education is ignorance." -Benjamin Franklin

  5. #125
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aella View Post
    Oh, I get it. It's just that I thought my previous paragraph made it clear I understood that there is, indeed, a difference between the tactics/objectives/origins of each movement.

    And the bit you actually quoted, well, I wasn't necessarily addressing a specific post here (I haven't recently reread the whole thread, so maybe I'm missing something). More like the people who are dismissive of gay rights movements, or who say 'now is not the right time' or similar rhetoric. Because I'd argue that there is no such thing as the 'right' time for social change, and that even if the goal is not achieved, any public discourse/visible dissent is a step in the right direction.
    I agree with that totally. That was the case in the 60's with the civil rights struggle. People like Martin Luther King were intially shunned by some blacks because he was talking equality and civil rights. The belief was that 'you don't want to rock the boat.' But the boat has to be rocked when it's off-course in regards to equality and social justice.

  6. #126
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    But this post represents the problem right here. Why is it that if RIS or I point out how the two movements are different that you go on the attack with these wild asumptions about our motives? Nobody disputes the fact that the two movements are relevant. There's no point in comparing any of the civil rights movements, be it blacks, gays or women. They are ALL worthy movements that stand on their own historical merits. One can used as a blueprint for another, but saying 'gay is the new black' doesn't make any sense in historical context, since both groups went through different experiences.
    As a minority female, I know the rights I have today stem from two different movements. The black civil rights movement and the women's rights movement, collectively, provided me with all the rights I have today. While both were struggles by a group which was being oppressed by the majority power holders, the movements were different. Both, to me, are equally important in the very choices I have today. If blacks had not been given their civil rights, I would be afraid to speak my mind here, leave my home, or do many things I take for granted every day. Had the women's rights movement never happened, I would have basic rights, but my brothers, not in the metaphoric sense, would have rights I would not, such as voting. I would have been able to marry, under the black civil rights, but divorcing would have been hell on earth, if women before me hadn't fought tooth and nail.

    While those two movements have paved the way for the gay rights movement and future movements, none of them are the same, as they erupted from different situations. Does my pointing out the differences between those movements negate either of them? Absolutely not.



  7. #127
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    As a minority female, I know the rights I have today stem from two different movements. The black civil rights movement and the women's rights movement, collectively, provided me with all the rights I have today. While both were struggles by a group which was being oppressed by the majority power holders, the movements were different. Both, to me, are equally important in the very choices I have today. If blacks had not been given their civil rights, I would be afraid to speak my mind here, leave my home, or do many things I take for granted every day. Had the women's rights movement never happened, I would have basic rights, but my brothers, not in the metaphoric sense, would have rights I would not, such as voting. I would have been able to marry, under the black civil rights, but divorcing would have been hell on earth, if women before me hadn't fought tooth and nail.

    While those two movements have paved the way for the gay rights movement and future movements, none of them are the same, as they erupted from different situations. Does my pointing out the differences between those movements negate either of them? Absolutely not.
    Exactly.

  8. #128
    Gold Member ymeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    *rubs temples* Hadn't we already cleared this?

    Blacks enjoy some rights gays dont

    Gays enjoy some rights NOW that blacks had to fight for to get in the PAST.

    Currently, gays DO NOT enjoy the same level of rights that blacks do. Blacks have more.


    Bias has nothing to do with it.

    The battle marches on, despite some of the rights being sought being different.

    Inequality is still apparent.

    it's all ONE BIG RIGHTS WAR until inequality is a relic of the past. It's one big tent. We're all in it.
    You are a better being than I. Internet bigot skank is a harder stench for me to get rid of than carrion smell. Yes, the oppressions are tailored to the individual oppressed group, but what I find interesting is the tactics are always the same, that anyone can use them, even people who are in other instances member of a particular oppressed group. So one can be a victim, yet in the same instance pick up the master's tools and fight the master's war for him, if one is too obtuse to understand the big picture and refuse to be a tool. I marvel at your tenacity. xo

  9. #129
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    My parents always said I was as stubborn as a mule.. apparently, I should have been a lawyer.. or stand up comedian... or some kind of freakish combination, like william shatner.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  10. #130
    Elite Member JamieElizabeth's Avatar
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    ^^It's never too late

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