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Thread: Why Rick Warren is a fascist asshole, and an albatross around Obama's neck

  1. #106
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    Forget RIS for a second and concentrate on me. Go back through this thread and specifically point out where I'm saying or implying that by comparing the two movements that it demeans one over the other.
    Right here.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    The gay civil rights movements needs to stand on it's own two feet and not try to piggyback on the civil rights movements of the 60's.

  2. #107
    Elite Member lurkur's Avatar
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    If you think one movement is not related to another, across cultures, across time, you are surely mistaken. History, culture, is all interwoven, and it is created by us and what we do. A person is not just black. Is not just gay. Is not just a woman. Is not just one thing, so to isolate them into one group or movement with one cause is just stupid.

    Those of you trying to draw a line between the "two" movements are doing nothing but segregation. When you draw a line, you separate.

    Erase the fucking line and join together because the majority isn't going to do shit for the minority otherwise, especially if they are already fighting each other down.

  3. #108
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    ... been tryin'.....
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  4. #109
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Go back and read Rev's post history, and I never said the second part.
    I will save everyone the trouble of going back through and reading what I have said regarding the two movements being the same:

    THE TWO MOVEMENTS ARE ROOTED IN DIFFERENT ARENAS! The Black Civil rights movement was needed to gain even the most basic of civil rights, such as equal education and voting rights. While the gay rights movement is seeking "civil rights", those rights are in addition to the civil rights currently possessed by gays.

    No one is telling you gays shouldn't want or work for the rights believed to be owed. What those who can see clearly are saying is if this fight pushes for a quick decision, you won't gain anything. No one in the government is going to risk the repercussions of touching this issue now and if forced to, they will cave to the majority.

    What part of that is so hard to understand? It isn't if you aren't biased.

    Also, please stop lumping two individuals together because they share a common ethnic background. We are individuals and should be treated as such, whether we agree or disagree.

    Until the Supreme Court accepts a case regarding this or the legislators decide to vote on it, the debate is a moot point.



  5. #110
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    While the gay rights movement is seeking "civil rights", those rights are in addition to the civil rights currently possessed by gays.
    *rubs temples* Hadn't we already cleared this?

    Blacks enjoy some rights gays dont

    Gays enjoy some rights NOW that blacks had to fight for to get in the PAST.

    Currently, gays DO NOT enjoy the same level of rights that blacks do. Blacks have more.


    Bias has nothing to do with it.

    The battle marches on, despite some of the rights being sought being different.

    Inequality is still apparent.

    it's all ONE BIG RIGHTS WAR until inequality is a relic of the past. It's one big tent. We're all in it.
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  6. #111
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurkur View Post
    If you think one movement is not related to another, across cultures, across time, you are surely mistaken. History, culture, is all interwoven, and it is created by us and what we do. A person is not just black. Is not just gay. Is not just a woman. Is not just one thing, so to isolate them into one group or movement with one cause is just stupid.

    Those of you trying to draw a line between the "two" movements are doing nothing but segregation. When you draw a line, you separate.

    Erase the fucking line and join together because the majority isn't going to do shit for the minority otherwise, especially if they are already fighting each other down.
    Exactly. Perfect example is the women's rights movement dropping their support for the 14th & 15th amendments because there was no amendment for women's suffrage. Both groups (blacks and women) suffered due to fighting for rights. Women broke from the abolitionists and some women fought for educated suffrage, which took voting rights away from black men. Both groups suffered due to being separated into different movements.

  7. #112
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Right here.
    Saying that one movement should stand on it's own two feet without having to piggyback off of another is NOT saying that one is worthless and the other isn't or that gays don't deserve civil rights. Especially when you consider that I clearly stated that gays should look to the civil rights movement as a blueprint for their own struggle. Try again.

  8. #113
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurkur View Post
    If you think one movement is not related to another, across cultures, across time, you are surely mistaken. History, culture, is all interwoven, and it is created by us and what we do. A person is not just black. Is not just gay. Is not just a woman. Is not just one thing, so to isolate them into one group or movement with one cause is just stupid.

    Those of you trying to draw a line between the "two" movements are doing nothing but segregation. When you draw a line, you separate.

    Erase the fucking line and join together because the majority isn't going to do shit for the minority otherwise, especially if they are already fighting each other down.
    No offense, but that's a very simplistic and unrealistic point of view. The two movements are different because they had different focuses and objectives.

    Case in point, the primary focus of the gay civil rights struggle in 2009 centers around marriage, joining the military, and stronger hate law legislation.

    In 1960, the primary focus of the civil rights movement was about having a broader range of basic civil rights across the board. True, blacks could marry one another and join the military, but blacks were barred from exercising their Constitutional right to vote in parts of the country, which is why the Voter Rights Act had to be enacted. Blacks were LEGALLY barred from attending certain schools, riding in certain areas of buses or trains, eating in certain restaurants, moving into certain neighborhoods, and the list goes on. In 2009 America gays aren't legally barred from doing any of those things.

    And while blacks were the face of the Civil Rights movement of the 60's, the civil rights won from that struggle benefited ALL minorities, not just blacks, and to a certain extent benefited women and gays. The current gay civil right struggle isn't going to have such a sweeping scale of change for a broad group of people.

    The two movements are without question civil rights struggles, but they are different in size, scale and objective. And that's the reality that some people refuse to accept.

  9. #114
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    focus of the gay civil rights struggle in 2009 centers around marriage, joining the military, and stronger hate law legislation.
    erm, no offence but THAT is a simplistic view

    Marriage = financial rights, right of survivorship, benefits, hospital and insurance issues, etc..

    The military thing is about ending a discrimminatory practice that serves nobody under the guise of illogical "unit cohesion' arguments..

    that also ties in with basic employment discrimination rights.. ie: not beign fired just for being fay, or not being denied employment for being gay, with all the legal recourses intact

    the hate law legislation is what it is
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  10. #115
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Grim, marriage doesn't automatically equal ALL of those benefits for straight couples. If one spouse doesn't choose to make the other spouse the beneficiary of certain benefits then they aren't going to get them.

    As far as the military goes, the practice of excluding gays doesn't make sense and it does hurt the military, especially regarding translators. But even if they end the ban on gays in the military, gays are still going to be targeted for abuse just like blacks and other minorities were when they first integrated the military.

    And it still doesn't change the fact that the two movements are different in size, scale and objective.

  11. #116
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    The point was those options are available under marriage.

    Lastly, nobody is debating that except for the last part. The last is equality. The rest is irrelevant and only brought up BY YOU TWO OVER AND OVER, like saying otherwise is some sort of insult.
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  12. #117
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    No, the fact is that YOU and others keep trying to hammer home the point that the two movements are exactly alike because they involve civil rights. But there have been many groups who have gone through civil rights struggles and those struggles are DIFFERENT because the groups went through DIFFERENT experiences.

    But it seems like if RIS or I point out that simple fact, we're accused of saying that gays don't deserve equal treatment. Because it seems that in this thread the word 'different' translates into 'not as good as,' and that rational is more emotional than logical.

  13. #118
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    again, for the fucking hundredth time.. point out where i said exactly alike.

    Do it.

    Post all the instances.

    I dare you.



    NOW, repost all the times i said "similar".

    I'll wait.
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  14. #119
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Okay, I stand corrected, you didn't say 'exactly the same.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post


    The rights in question are not exactly the same? What differenc does that make? Does that tiny separation make you feel better somehow? Is it enough that the black civil right movement can feel just that much more special, or better or more important? Is it enough that you can distance yourself from th civil rights battles others face so you don't feel icky? Shallow, petty and pathetic. Again, 1 gay black man holding a sign saying GAY IS THE NEW BLACK holds more weight than a million straight black people denying it.
    But this post represents the problem right here. Why is it that if RIS or I point out how the two movements are different that you go on the attack with these wild asumptions about our motives? Nobody disputes the fact that the two movements are relevant. There's no point in comparing any of the civil rights movements, be it blacks, gays or women. They are ALL worthy movements that stand on their own historical merits. One can used as a blueprint for another, but saying 'gay is the new black' doesn't make any sense in historical context, since both groups went through different experiences.

  15. #120
    Elite Member Aella's Avatar
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    Of course no two movements are the same: racism does not equal homophobia (does not equal sexism, does not equal ableism, does not equal classicism). If being discriminated against automatically gave any two groups kinship and understanding, then all our problems would be magically solved by sending all the Rich White Heterosexual Able-Bodied Christian Males into space. Things are more complicated than that. And of course, any 'oppressed' group can discriminate in turn-one of my issues with second wave feminism is how it seems to centre around the issues of middle-class white (mostly American) women and in doing so is excluding/ignoring the concerns of any woman not fitting that mold.

    But the fact all anti-discrimination movements are not equal does not mean one is more important than the other, or that any form of prejudice is not problematic.
    "Remember to always be yourself. Unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

    "The only thing more expensive than education is ignorance." -Benjamin Franklin

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