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Thread: Why Rick Warren is a fascist asshole, and an albatross around Obama's neck

  1. #76
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    The only rights that blacks have that gays don't have is blacks can marry each other and join the military
    You also can't be fired for being black, or be refused for hire for being black.

    you also have hate crime protections.

    I could probably dredge up a few more.

    The gay civil rights movement is focusing primarily on the issue of marriage,
    No, that's just what's running into the most resistance from the usual asshole brigade.

    Let me say this for everybody in this thread. Just because myself or RevellingInsane are saying that the gay civil rights movement and the black civil rights movement aren't the same thing doesn't mean that we are putting down the gay civil rights struggle or saying that somehow gays shouldn't have rights.
    You might have to speak for yourself on this. Rev is vehemently more against the idea of even the most basic comparisons, and still hasn't given a reason for it. Then again, she's also fond of repeating right-wing arguments against the whole gay civil rights thing (slippery slope, churches forced to do things) so it really puts her whole position in what seems to be a more bigoted light.
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    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    You also can't be fired for being black, or be refused for hire for being black.

    you also have hate crime protections.

    I could probably dredge up a few more.



    No, that's just what's running into the most resistance from the usual asshole brigade.



    You might have to speak for yourself on this. Rev is vehemently more against the idea of even the most basic comparisons, and still hasn't given a reason for it. Then again, she's also fond of repeating right-wing arguments against the whole gay civil rights thing (slippery slope, churches forced to do things) so it really puts her whole position in what seems to be a more bigoted light.
    You CAN'T be fire for being gay or not hired because you're gay. Anti-discrimination laws prevent that.

    Blacks have some hate law protection, but it doesn't always work. And gays have some hate law protection, too. That's like saying that gays can be killed in America and the issue of hate crimes never comes up, because it does. But just like with blacks hate law legislation isn't always effective.

  3. #78
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    You CAN'T be fire for being gay or not hired because you're gay. Anti-discrimination laws prevent that.
    ROFL, depending on what state you live in my dear boy, and the states that offer such are few and far between... and I'm not aware of any hate crime legislation that benefits gays, last i checked it failed miserably sometime last year.
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  4. #79
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    ROFL, depending on what state you live in my dear boy, and the states that offer such are few and far between... and I'm not aware of any hate crime legislation that benefits gays, last i checked it failed miserably sometime last year.
    Okay, I forgot some of the southern states. My bad.

    As far as hate law legislation, I think a lot of states have expanded that legislation to include hate crimes against gays.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Not that I'm aware of. Maybe Mass.
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  6. #81
    Elite Member lurkur's Avatar
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    When oppressed minorities fight amongst each other over who is more oppressed, it's a divided-we-fail wedge tactic. We've ALL been treated like shit, some to a worse degree than others. Those in power are more than happy to see discussions like this, which drive previously aligned people apart.

    We should be working for EVERYONE's freedom, at all times.

    And it's not like discrimination, on any basis, is something that needs to "wait" to eliminate because of the economy. If anything, laws against such discrimination will help our economy as it opens up new markets.

  7. #82
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurkur View Post
    When oppressed minorities fight amongst each other over who is more oppressed, it's a divided-we-fail wedge tactic. We've ALL been treated like shit, some to a worse degree than others. Those in power are more than happy to see discussions like this, which drive previously aligned people apart.

    We should be working for EVERYONE's freedom, at all times.

    And it's not like discrimination, on any basis, is something that needs to "wait" to eliminate because of the economy. If anything, laws against such discrimination will help our economy as it opens up new markets.

    Exactly. All groups who have been fucked over, be it minorities, women, gays, etc, shouldn't constantly be fighting amongst themselves, because it doesn't benefit any of them. Unfortunately, I think there's a knee-jerk reaction from people within all of those groups to defend themselves because you've gotten tired of getting the short-end of the stick.

  8. #83
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    So where does the knee jerk reaction come from regarding "dont compare gay civil rights to black civil rights"?
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  9. #84
    Elite Member lurkur's Avatar
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    People get very personal about their personal experiences. That's only natural because that is what has been in front of your eyes. But there are billions of other pairs of eyes out there, and shit happens every day. The experiences you've had are unique... but then again, no they aren't at all, because we all go through it in some form.

    It's sad to see people continue suffering side-by-side separately instead of joining together to help end each others suffering and their own. Like, DUH??

  10. #85
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Amusing, since native american culture's didn't exist in a "state" system of society.
    Which just shows your attempted example was pointless, which is no surprise. You just admitted it didn't fit the parameters laid out. It was culturally accepted. I specifically said state sanctioned, therefore that example couldn't possibly be used, since they didn't have such a system. I am glad you were able to figure that out.


    Quote Originally Posted by mamaste View Post
    Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- MLK 1963

    I have lived my entire life believing those words. I do not feel it is right to deny basic rights to citizens. Getting married is a basic right. I do not care about religious institutions since I tend to avoid them. But I do not believe the state has the right to deny a marriage license to an adult couple wanting one no matter the gender of the couple.

    I am black, but I am not fond of quantifying or qualifying oppression and suffering. It doesn't help any of us and usually ends up causing more division.
    I wonder how his religious background would have affected his stance? He is not hear to speak, therefore his words are being interpreted as the reader perceives. Unless he speaks, I can not assume homosexuality would have been condoned or opposed by MLK. No one knows.


    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    1) The civil rights movement wasn't a build-up of hundreds of years of work. It was more a culmination of decades of work that manisfested itself in the 50's and 60's.

    2) And neither RIS or I were putting down the gay civil rights struggle. So, I don't know where you got that idea from. I know you and RIS have had your issues in the past, but don't try dragging me into it, because that's not my problem. And maybe you need to go back and reread what I wrote before you start making wild assumptions. And the fact that I specifically pointed out that no matter what blacks have gone through Native Americans had it far worse proves that I don't think of it as a 'badge of honor.' But I guess you just decided to skip over that post because it would defeat your little point. The simple fact of the matter is that gays in 2009 America have more civil rights than blacks in 1960 America did. And that's the point that I was making. And that's not putting down the gay civil rights struggle, that's just pointing out the obvious.
    Saying it is based on different rights seems to make some pissy. Too bad it is true. It isn't negating either struggle to admit the rights desired were different; however, it will lead to claims of the desire to be special or even being bigoted to point out the histories and the movements themselves lack similarities, while being equally important to the groups who were involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    I think what RIS was pointing out was that in regards to civil rights gays have it better now than blacks had it back in the 60's. At least that's what I got from it. Neither RIS or I were saying that the gay civil rights movement isn't as important as the black civil rights movement, we were just pointing out that it's a different struggle.

    Because if blacks in 1960 had most of the basic civil rights that gays in 2009 have then there wouldn't have been a need for a civil rights movement. The main civil right that gays are pushing for in 2009 is marriage, but in the 50's and 60's, being able to marry interracially wasn't even a key issue for blacks, because there were other basic civil rights needs that had to be met first, basic civil rights that gays already enjoy in 2009. So, while gays should look to the civil rights movement of the 60's as a blueprint, they were two different movements because the civil rights objectives were totally different.
    The bold is exactly what I was pointing out. The black civil rights movement was to request rights that gays have now. So yes, gays are light years ahead in terms of civil rights. You were able to vote in November weren't you? Were you shot at for registering? No? Blacks were.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    The reason why I gave that laundry list was to counter the one Grim gave. But I guess you didn't notice that either? And putting a laundry list isn't putting down a struggle. Because if I was putting down the gay civil rights struggle, then I would've clearly stated that I was putting it down. I know your little assumptions must make you feel good, but don't waste my time with them.

    It's funny that you seem to be saving all of your lectures for me and RIS, but not for anyone else. So, that's why the lectures have no credibility. Moving along.
    After Prop 8, the media used the old divide and conquer method you mentioned earlier, by stating the percentages of black and latino voters who supported it. Of course, before anyone could take the time to actually crunch the numbers, which would have proved the white vote decided the outcome one way or the other, the insults were being hurled. The majority got what they wanted and had the minorities distracted by bickering.

    There is one other reason the lectures have no credibilty. They are fueled by emotion and a personal interest, which lowers objectivity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    I only noticed you and RIS attempting to discredit gays' fighting for their civil rights because it wasn't THE civil rights movement. Why would I "lecture" mamaste, Aella, Grimmlok and gas chick for making statements I agree with?
    No one is discrediting your movement. To point out they are different is just that and nothing more. Why are you so upset when black point out the obvious differences?

    Of course you would not lecture anyone who doesn't dare disagree with anything you believe, even if it is not quite correct, such as the movements being different.

    Grim, have fun wasting your time trying to "break me" as you call it, or as I see it, your trying to force someone to see your way as correct. As hard as it may be for you to accept, your way is neither the only way nor always the correct way and not everyone can be shouted down. Your tenacity doesn't intimidate me in the least. I have dealt with bigger barks than yours quite easily.



  11. #86
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Which just shows your attempted example was pointless, which is no surprise. You just admitted it didn't fit the parameters laid out. It was culturally accepted. I specifically said state sanctioned, therefore that example couldn't possibly be used, since they didn't have such a system. I am glad you were able to figure that out.
    Don't flatter yourself honey, I said they did not exist in a 'state' society, as usually defined most probably in indo-euro-asian terms. Does that mean that their culture was without social heirarchy or institutions? Don't be absurd.


    I wonder how his religious background would have affected his stance? He is not hear to speak, therefore his words are being interpreted as the reader perceives. Unless he speaks, I can not assume homosexuality would have been condoned or opposed by MLK. No one knows.
    Aw whynot? People use Jebus all the time despite him never uttering a word of what's written in the bible, considering it was written a few hundred years after his death *eyeroll*

    Imagine that, people following the stories of some guy who lived 2000 years ago, as told by people who lived centuries after his death, and basing their world view on it. Hilarity.


    Saying it is based on different rights seems to make some pissy. Too bad it is true. It isn't negating either struggle to admit the rights desired were different; however, it will lead to claims of the desire to be special or even being bigoted to point out the histories and the movements themselves lack similarities, while being equally important to the groups who were involved.
    Well that's the biggest spitshine on all your diatribes that I've ever seen. Very diplomatic.


    The bold is exactly what I was pointing out. The black civil rights movement was to request rights that gays have now. So yes, gays are light years ahead in terms of civil rights. You were able to vote in November weren't you? Were you shot at for registering? No? Blacks were.
    Again, go read what was already posted vis a vis what group had what rights. You're still trying to make it "BLACKS HAD IT HARDER" to feel special.

    After Prop 8, the media used the old divide and conquer method you mentioned earlier, by stating the percentages of black and latino voters who supported it. Of course, before anyone could take the time to actually crunch the numbers, which would have proved the white vote decided the outcome one way or the other, the insults were being hurled. The majority got what they wanted and had the minorities distracted by bickering.
    .. and supposed allies kept repeating the enemy propaganda, even defending it, yeah, we're all aware...

    There is one other reason the lectures have no credibilty. They are fueled by emotion and a personal interest, which lowers objectivity.
    Hilarious, considering I'm not personally affected by what happens in another country beyond plain commiseration.


    No one is discrediting your movement. To point out they are different is just that and nothing more. Why are you so upset when black point out the obvious differences?
    Funny, you're the one who started the "it's not the same, we had it worse, there are no similarities, stop trying to compare/connect the two' crap, which I've been patiently re-explaining ever since.

    Of course you would not lecture anyone who doesn't dare disagree with anything you believe, even if it is not quite correct, such as the movements being different.
    I didn't say the movements were not different. I said they compared in many ways. Until right now, your position has been "they arent similar there's no comparison, we had it worse, etc."

    I can go back and requote you each time, if you like.


    Grim, have fun wasting your time trying to "break me" as you call it, or as I see it, your trying to force someone to see your way as correct. As hard as it may be for you to accept, your way is neither the only way nor always the correct way and not everyone can be shouted down. Your tenacity doesn't intimidate me in the least. I have dealt with bigger barks than yours quite easily.
    You seem to be failing quite spectacularely against my most modest of efforts, all I have to do is repeat the logic and watch you flail against it. I'm also really not interested in comparing internet dicks, that's for morons.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  12. #87
    Gold Member mamaste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    I wonder how his religious background would have affected his stance? He is not hear to speak, therefore his words are being interpreted as the reader perceives. Unless he speaks, I can not assume homosexuality would have been condoned or opposed by MLK. No one knows.
    Well, his widow said he would've supported gay rights. The church he lead supports gay rights.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    mamaste, please stop making sense. It offends people.
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  14. #89
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    His wife and his church are not the man himself. I stated no one knows which way he would lean. We can't know. I am aware the late Coretta Scott King supported gay rights. I was referring to one man who never made a direct statement pertaining to this particular topic. To insinuate someone would have believed something, without that person having a chance to speak about it, is disrespectful, imho.

    The movements are different, based on different rights to be acquired. How difficult is that to understand?

    I never said don't fight. I said that right now, there is no arena in which those rights could be guaranteed to be given, considering the views of the people in all three branches of the government. To push for a decision now would not yield the results desired. Don't hate the person who can look at the formation and see the "push it NOW" strategy is flawed.



  15. #90
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Push it now? Push it always. Push and push and push. Wear them down if you have to. Shutting up never got anybody anything. EVER.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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