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Thread: Why Rick Warren is a fascist asshole, and an albatross around Obama's neck

  1. #61
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    uh, the point was Rev saying "don't compare what gays are going through to what blacks went through, there's no comparison, there's no connection, stop trying to make one" for reasons as yet unknown.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  2. #62
    Elite Member gas_chick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    but we're being told not to push, shove, sweat or almost die. We're told that now isn't the time.. nor was it the time in the past. We're told there are more important things to deal with. We're told to sit down, be quiet, and wait. We're told to assimilate, to be less 'threatening', to play nice. We're told we should be happy with what we have... all by the very same people who never did any of those things.

    Well bullshit. Fuck waiting. It is always time for all people to be treated equally. I'm the guardian of a teenage boy who was thrown out of his house when he came out to his family. I'm sure he's glad he can vote and all that but nothing like a boot print on your ass by your own parents to remind you things aren't equal.

  3. #63
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    1) The civil rights movement wasn't a build-up of hundreds of years of work. It was more a culmination of decades of work that manisfested itself in the 50's and 60's.
    A hundred years of work, not hundreds! And yes it was. Concentrating only on the 50s and 60s doesn't portray the full picture of how long the fight went on and how difficult it was. It's literally like saying Homer Plessy wasn't fighting for his civil rights back in the 1890s because he wasn't part of an official movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    2) And neither RIS or I were putting down the gay civil rights struggle. So, I don't know where you got that idea from.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    And maybe you need to go back and reread what I wrote before you start making wild assumptions.
    Didn't put down? Really? Then why this laundry list?
    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    Special status? Your argument loses any validity when you consider that the majority of the basic civil rights that gays already freely have are rights that blacks had to fight for. And the civil rights movement of the 60's made most of those civil rights that gays and other minority groups enjoy possible. Oh, by the way:

    Try being shot and lynched for being black.

    Try being told that you can't exercise your LEGAL right to vote, because you'll either be shot, killed or jailed.

    Try being unknowingly injected with diseases like they did with blacks in the south with the Tuskegee Experiment.

    Try being told that you aren't even considered a full human being, which the The Constitution of the United States stipulated.

    And blacks were banned from joining the military for years. And when the army first started integrating many of the blacks troops were being tormented by their fellow white soldiers.

    Blacks churches have been firebombed from the 60's through the present day

    So, you can keep trying to make the two civil rights movement comparable all you want, but they aren't. The gay civil rights movements needs to stand on it's own two feet and not try to piggyback on the civil rights movements of the 60's. Because it shouldn't have to.
    I mean, really, what the fuck is a laundry list of past injustices supposed to accomplish? It sounds as if you're trying to achieve some sort of superiority by listing these things.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    And the fact that I specifically pointed out that no matter what blacks have gone through Native Americans had it far worse proves that I don't think of it as a 'badge of honor.' But I guess you just decided to skip over that post because it would defeat your little point.
    Uh, no. I didn't quote it the first time, and it wasn't what I was commenting upon the first time. I quoted your same passage the first time sans laundry list and this time with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    The simple fact of the matter is that gays in 2009 America have more civil rights than blacks in 1960 America did. And that's the point that I was making. And that's not putting down the gay civil rights struggle, that's just pointing out the obvious.
    Is that what this really needs or has to be about? Who had it worse? Do you think that actually accomplishes anything for ANYONE? Or taking the time to prove such a matter?

  4. #64
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    uh, the point was Rev saying "don't compare what gays are going through to what blacks went through, there's no comparison, there's no connection, stop trying to make one" for reasons as yet unknown.
    I think what RIS was pointing out was that in regards to civil rights gays have it better now than blacks had it back in the 60's. At least that's what I got from it. Neither RIS or I were saying that the gay civil rights movement isn't as important as the black civil rights movement, we were just pointing out that it's a different struggle.

    Because if blacks in 1960 had most of the basic civil rights that gays in 2009 have then there wouldn't have been a need for a civil rights movement. The main civil right that gays are pushing for in 2009 is marriage, but in the 50's and 60's, being able to marry interracially wasn't even a key issue for blacks, because there were other basic civil rights needs that had to be met first, basic civil rights that gays already enjoy in 2009. So, while gays should look to the civil rights movement of the 60's as a blueprint, they were two different movements because the civil rights objectives were totally different.

  5. #65
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    A hundred years of work, not hundreds! And yes it was. Concentrating only on the 50s and 60s doesn't portray the full picture of how long the fight went on and how difficult it was. It's literally like saying Homer Plessy wasn't fighting for his civil rights back in the 1890s because he wasn't part of an official movement.


    Didn't put down? Really? Then why this laundry list?I mean, really, what the fuck is a laundry list of past injustices supposed to accomplish? It sounds as if you're trying to achieve some sort of superiority by listing these things.

    Uh, no. I didn't quote it the first time, and it wasn't what I was commenting upon the first time. I quoted your same passage the first time sans laundry list and this time with it.

    Is that what this really needs or has to be about? Who had it worse? Do you think that actually accomplishes anything for ANYONE? Or taking the time to prove such a matter?

    The reason why I gave that laundry list was to counter the one Grim gave. But I guess you didn't notice that either? And putting a laundry list isn't putting down a struggle. Because if I was putting down the gay civil rights struggle, then I would've clearly stated that I was putting it down. I know your little assumptions must make you feel good, but don't waste my time with them.

    It's funny that you seem to be saving all of your lectures for me and RIS, but not for anyone else. So, that's why the lectures have no credibility. Moving along.

  6. #66
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Uh my laundry lists only came up when Rev kept posting hers in some fucked up way to claim a 'harder struggle' and disabuse any notions that there is an overarching civil rights war going on.

    I will break her of that silly notion at some point.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  7. #67
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    The reason why I gave that laundry list was to counter the one Grim gave. But I guess you didn't notice that either? And putting a laundry list isn't putting down a struggle. Because if I was putting down the gay civil rights struggle, then I would've clearly stated that I was putting it down. I know your little assumptions must make you feel good, but don't waste my time with them.

    It's funny that you seem to be saving all of your lectures for me and RIS, but not for anyone else. So, that's why the lectures have no credibility. Moving along.
    I only noticed you and RIS attempting to discredit gays' fighting for their civil rights because it wasn't THE civil rights movement. Why would I "lecture" mamaste, Aella, Grimmlok and gas chick for making statements I agree with?

  8. #68
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Uh my laundry lists only came up when Rev kept posting hers in some fucked up way to claim a 'harder struggle' and disabuse any notions that there is an overarching civil rights war going on.

    I will break her of that silly notion at some point.
    Well, I'll let you and RIS fight that out, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    I only noticed you and RIS attempting to discredit gays' fighting for their civil rights because it wasn't THE civil rights movement. Why would I "lecture" mamaste, Aella, Grimmlok and gas chick for making statements I agree with?
    Considering that we weren't discrediting it, proves that you were making an assumption. Saying that the gay civil rights struggle and the black civil rights struggle aren't the same thing because gays have MORE of the basic civil rights that blacks were denied isn't trying to discredit the gay civil rights movement. That's just what you chose to read into it, which isn't my problem.

  9. #69
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say more.

    I would say different.

    Pretty sure the laundry lists accomplished that. It went tit for tat.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  10. #70
    Elite Member NicoleWasHere's Avatar
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    I don't even see why there's an arguement in the first place.

    Blacks are human beings. Check. They're allowed to get married, right? Sure, as should any human. So why can't gays and lesbians be looked at in the same light? They're humans, and they have rights, though not as many as they should.

    Say what you want, civil rights and gay rights movements are very similar. Either way you look at it, there's discrimination for boths sides, and there isn't a reason for it. Blacks have more rights than they used to, as they should, so why should gay people be denied the very same rights? I don't understand why certain people are so viciously bitter about that? Gay people aren't aliens. They're not gonna infect you with anything. They're not gonna steal your family, or eat your kids, or beat grandma with a stick.

    If the same thing were happening with blacks, all over again, the very same people who are trying to argue about gay marriage and gay rights would be all over it. It's the same thing. When you fall into a certain category, be it black, Mexican, homosexual, whatever... and you're denied rights... you want those rights. Simple ones, like TO GET MARRIED, and not have other people worry about what happens in the bedroom.

    If gay people want to get married, it's not anyone elses business, but the people involved. And I really don't get why a lot of people don't understand that. Straight people don't want people knowing what's going on in their bedrooms, and certainly, most of the country doesn't want the government controlling what does or doesn't happen. It isn't the goverments place to decide who marries who, it's not anybody's business. If there's someone you love enough to want to marry, it shouldn't even matter if you're marrying the same sex or not. If they're both consenting adults, then by all means, get married, be happy, start your own family, and move on with your life.

    Don't judge unless you want to be judged. Love your brother.

    [/rant]

  11. #71
    Elite Member Aella's Avatar
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    This thread is giving me bad flashbacks of some University debates along the same lines. You'll be shocked to know, the discussion didn't get very far then either.

    It's almost making me wish there were some black gay people on the board (or if there are, that they would speak up. I bet they'd have an interesting perspective to offer).
    "Remember to always be yourself. Unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

    "The only thing more expensive than education is ignorance." -Benjamin Franklin

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    Let me apologize in advance for my rambling post:

    Bottom line, you can't legislate tolerance. There is no law in the land that will convince some people that EVERYONE should be given the same rights. It's very sad.

    That being said, giving everyone the same rights would at the very least be a step toward acknowledging the fact that everyone should be created equal, no matter their race, gender or sexual orientation.

    In my opinion, the biggest problem with the discrimination faced by gays is the religious component. As long as there are people at the pulpit saying it's wrong and against the Bible, followers will believe it. What I find funny is that you would think that highly religious people would be the most tolerant, loving people around, but that doesn't ever seem to be the case. Instead, they use their religion as an excuse to be intolerant of others not exactly like them. Somehow, I don't think this is what God wanted.

    Why do we even have religious leaders at the inauguration anyway? I really hate the hypocrisy of our government's "separation of church and state" -- how is there a separation is our president needs to put his hand on a bible, our money has "in God we trust" on it, etc.?

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    Sure you can. Ever hear of Hate Crime legislation? How about anti discrimination? All citizens shall enjoy equal protection under the law. As opposed to everyone but you people who like to sleep with 'your own kind'.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter View Post
    Sure you can. Ever hear of Hate Crime legislation? How about anti discrimination? All citizens shall enjoy equal protection under the law. As opposed to everyone but you people who like to sleep with 'your own kind'.

    You can have all the laws in the world, but you can't change how people feel, that was my point.

    And, if I wasn't clear in my previous post, I absolutely believe that EVERYONE should have the same rights. I am in no way a "you people" that you refer to. I think it is appalling and archaic that we aren't to that point.

  15. #75
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleWasHere View Post
    I don't even see why there's an arguement in the first place.

    Blacks are human beings. Check. They're allowed to get married, right? Sure, as should any human. So why can't gays and lesbians be looked at in the same light? They're humans, and they have rights, though not as many as they should.

    Say what you want, civil rights and gay rights movements are very similar. Either way you look at it, there's discrimination for boths sides, and there isn't a reason for it. Blacks have more rights than they used to, as they should, so why should gay people be denied the very same rights? I don't understand why certain people are so viciously bitter about that? Gay people aren't aliens. They're not gonna infect you with anything. They're not gonna steal your family, or eat your kids, or beat grandma with a stick.

    If the same thing were happening with blacks, all over again, the very same people who are trying to argue about gay marriage and gay rights would be all over it. It's the same thing. When you fall into a certain category, be it black, Mexican, homosexual, whatever... and you're denied rights... you want those rights. Simple ones, like TO GET MARRIED, and not have other people worry about what happens in the bedroom.

    If gay people want to get married, it's not anyone elses business, but the people involved. And I really don't get why a lot of people don't understand that. Straight people don't want people knowing what's going on in their bedrooms, and certainly, most of the country doesn't want the government controlling what does or doesn't happen. It isn't the goverments place to decide who marries who, it's not anybody's business. If there's someone you love enough to want to marry, it shouldn't even matter if you're marrying the same sex or not. If they're both consenting adults, then by all means, get married, be happy, start your own family, and move on with your life.

    Don't judge unless you want to be judged. Love your brother.

    [/rant]

    The only rights that blacks have that gays don't have is blacks can marry each other and join the military. All of the basic civil rights that blacks were fighting for in the 50's and 60's gays already have in 2009. If blacks had all of those basic civil rights that gays already have now then there wouldn't have been a need for a civil rights movement.

    Let me say this for everybody in this thread. Just because myself or RevellingInsane are saying that the gay civil rights movement and the black civil rights movement aren't the same thing doesn't mean that we are putting down the gay civil rights struggle or saying that somehow gays shouldn't have rights. Pointing out the FACTS about the obvious differences in the movements isn't demeaning one over the other.

    The gay civil rights movement is focusing primarily on the issue of marriage, while the civil rights movement of the 60's focused on a wide-range of civil rights issues at various levels of society. Now, if gays were being denied the same basic civil rights that blacks were denied, or if blacks were only fighting for the right to marry one another, then both movements would be exactly the same. Without question.

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