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Thread: Why Rick Warren is a fascist asshole, and an albatross around Obama's neck

  1. #31
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    It's not a matter of blacks thinking it's gross to be lumped in with gays. The fact is while they may be civil rights struggles, they are two different civil rights struggles.

    The two major issues of the current gay civil rights movement is primarily about being able to get married and being able to serve in the military. Gays can still vote freely, go to whatever school they want to go to, don't have to sit in the back of the bus, use seperate bathrooms or water fountains, and can basically move into any neighborhood they chose to. And gays aren't currently being lynched from trees every day or constantly having police dogs and hoses turned on them as they struggle for civil rights. During the civil rights struggle of the 60's that's what blacks had to go through, so it's not the same exact struggle.

    The environment is much different for the gay civil rights movement than it was for the civil rights movement for blacks.
    Absolutely.

    but

    KC, don't even bother. The gay rights movement is going to continue to latch on to the black civil rights=gay civil rights methodology regardless of the fact the civil rights in question ARE NOT THE SAME, which your post succinctly pointed out. Notice this:

    Funny, most gay people think otherwise.
    Of course most gay people think their movement is the same as the black civil rights movement, when in fact, gay people have many of the the very rights blacks did not. While the rights the gay movement seek, namely marriage, would fall under the blanket term of civil rights, the situations are totally different and should be admitted to be.

    Moving along...


    If gay rights are introduced right now, and the marriage issue were not brought up, while federal anti-discrimination laws and the military policies were, the gay movement would still be pissed, even if those measures passed. It's an all or nothing situation and if Obama introduces that now, forget anything else, regardless of how much it may assist the US. Obama's administration and the gay rights movement would suffer severe blows. Even a novice political strategist would advise against Obama touching that subject now because it will serve to only harm everyone involved. Obama will have a worthless term and the gay rights movement will get nothing.

    Have you even considered that if he did bring this topic up what would happen? If left to the citizen vote, anti-discrimination would probably pass, but DADT and marriage would definitely fail. If the legislators were to vote on bills, anti-discrimination and DADT would change, but marriage wouldn't. If the Supreme Court would take the case, which it doesn't seem to be keen on doing any time soon, I see the outcome the same. DOMA isn't going anywhere as long as the political environment is like this. Exactly which arena do you feel right now would give the gay rights movement everything it is asking for? Executive? Legislative? Judicial? Pop vote? I'll take E, none of the above.

    What you want is not going to be granted in this current atmosphere. Feel free to push it right now. Push it into the Senate. Push it into the Supreme Court. Watch it get pushed right out the door, which will be slammed shut. To run full speed into the melee will be movement suicide.

    As I said in a thread months ago, the gay rights movement isn't looking at the situation and objectively considering the factors facing it currently. The desire to have what the movement feels it deserves is impairing its sight and judgment. That impatience is going to play right into the hands of those with conservative views on gay rights, if the issue is forced to be decided now. Discrimination laws may come from it. Even DADT may be repealed. Marriage? Won't happen. Haven't the recent polls clued you in as to how even the most seemingly liberal people aren't quite as liberal when that issue arises?

    Gay rights can win, eventually. It can't win today. It can refuse to step back and wait for the proper time to strike and lose miserably today.

    That's how it is. Deal.



  2. #32
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    The right time never comes. It must be forced. If everybody waited "till the right time" nothing would ever happen, because there's never a "right time" according to people in power and those who feel there are "more important things to deal with".

    Nobody wants to touch the gay thing. Ever. No so called 'liberals' in power will get near it. They'll talk a big game but never deliver, and throw the gays under the bus at the first opportunity. They always have. They always will.

    You hold a knife to their throats to MAKE THEM confront it. You keep up the pressure. You don't let off, or wait. You keep their feet to the fire because they will always say there's more important things to deal with.

    To gays, there isn't. Frankly, too bad for everyone else who keeps saying "wait till later". Gays don't want later. They want now. They're tired of 'taking one for the team' and not being selfish. Fuck that. It's time to be selfish and fuck everyone else who disagrees. Gays have waited long enough for the rest of you to say "ok, NOW you can petition for equality".

    It's not your place to say when. Its ours. They're our rights, not yours. It's our equality, not yours. You don't bequeath them, we take them and by force if necessary, with all legal power we can muster.

    also,

    The gay rights movement is going to continue to latch on to the black civil rights=gay civil rights methodology regardless of the fact the civil rights in question ARE NOT THE SAME, which your post succinctly pointed out.
    The rights in question are not exactly the same? What differenc does that make? Does that tiny separation make you feel better somehow? Is it enough that the black civil right movement can feel just that much more special, or better or more important? Is it enough that you can distance yourself from th civil rights battles others face so you don't feel icky? Shallow, petty and pathetic. Again, 1 gay black man holding a sign saying GAY IS THE NEW BLACK holds more weight than a million straight black people denying it.

    It's almost like listening to people saying "protect marriage! exclude people!" because they want to enjoy their little marital clique and feel special. Same mentality. Smallminded.
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  3. #33
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    The right time never comes. It must be forced. If everybody waited "till the right time" nothing would ever happen, because there's never a "right time" according to people in power and those who feel there are "more important things to deal with".
    In different circumstances, force would be the correct method. In this one, there is no one to force. The public, Capitol Hill, and the Supreme Court are avoiding it at all costs. Who are you going to put pressure on? No one who can make a difference obviously.

    Nobody wants to touch the gay thing. Ever. No so called 'liberals' in power will get near it. They'll talk a big game but never deliver, and throw the gays under the bus at the first opportunity. They always have. They always will.

    You hold a knife to their throats to MAKE THEM confront it. You keep up the pressure. You don't let off, or wait. You keep their feet to the fire because they will always say there's more important things to deal with.

    To gays, there isn't. Frankly, too bad for everyone else who keeps saying "wait till later". Gays don't want later. They want now. They're tired of 'taking one for the team' and not being selfish. Fuck that. It's time to be selfish and fuck everyone else who disagrees. Gays have waited long enough for the rest of you to say "ok, NOW you can petition for equality".
    You really need to open your eyes and stop letting your personal feelings cloud your interpretation of the situation.

    If what you stated in that section is true, can you not somehow begin to comprehend that at this point in the history of the movement, thanks to recent events such as proposition 8, more people, politicians and their constituents, have voiced their opposition more than ever before. If anything, the entity you are trying to "hold the knife" to is stronger and putting up more of a fight. Exactly how could you force anything? Hold that knife. Apply the pressure. Draw blood if it makes you feel better. When you are disarmed and knocked to the floor, gaining nothing, who can you blame?

    I will make this very simple. The movement will not win the prize, regardless of the venue, if it demands the match now. The public will vote against it. The legislators will not commit career suicide by supporting it. The Supreme Court won't even bother to hear you. What will you do? Go above all them? Maybe to God/Jehovah/Yahweh/Allah/whatever you like to call him/her? Oh wait...

    It's not your place to say when. Its ours. They're our rights, not yours. It's our equality, not yours. You don't bequeath them, we take them and by force if necessary, with all legal power we can muster.
    Since it isn't "my place", stop comparing your struggle to the struggle of the civil rights movement of others. Either this is a strictly gay struggle, which mean the gay movement should cease saying it is the "new black" and expecting non gays to support them, since it isn't "our rights or our equality" or it is just the same as the black struggle, which was supported by non-blacks. You can't choose to use an example when it suits you, then toss it when it doesn't, which is the wishy-washy behavior seen many times over in the gay rights movement.

    It obviously isn't your place, otherwise, you would have what the movement considers rights, wouldn't you? Regardless of what you want and when you want it, the truth it, if the gay population pushes for the decision to be handed down now, it will be wanting those rights for a long time to come. Why? The main event, marriage, would be shot down. The lawmakers won't support it. The Supreme Court has, is, and probably will, ignore the case for as long as possible. Of course, if they felt pressured to take it on, considering the make up of the court at this time, marriage rights would be denied, although some sort of legal contract, not offering all the benefits of hetero marriage, might be given as a placating gesture. Go ahead. Push. The outcome won't be what you want.

    The rights in question are not exactly the same? What differenc does that make? Does that tiny separation make you feel better somehow? Is it enough that the black civil right movement can feel just that much more special, or better or more important? Is it enough that you can distance yourself from th civil rights battles others face so you don't feel icky? Shallow, petty and pathetic. Again, 1 gay black man holding a sign saying GAY IS THE NEW BLACK holds more weight than a million straight black people denying it.
    The rights in question are not the same. It has nothing to do with feeling special. It has everything to do with forcing the gay movement to accept their own issues and not try to use the momentum of something that doesn't even apply to their situation.

    No, one gay black man holding that sign just shows someone who is doubly pissed off at the world. To him, it may be the new black. To everyone else, he is simply delusional. The only similarity is that there is a struggle and neither group is the majority. You can have the million (black gay) man march if you would like. The similarities will not increase in number.

    Do you enter restaurants through the back door? Are you forced to drink from fountains labeled "gay"? Are you denied access to events because you are gay? Were you denied education because you are gay? Are not allowed to own land? The last time I checked, none of that applied, so no, the cases are not the same. Take this struggle as your own. Stand on your own two feet and stop trying to connect to a past event which had a different foundation.



  4. #34
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Since it isn't "my place", stop comparing your struggle to the struggle of the civil rights movement of others. Either this is a strictly gay struggle, which mean the gay movement should cease saying it is the "new black" and expecting non gays to support them, since it isn't "our rights or our equality" or it is just the same as the black struggle, which was supported by non-blacks. You can't choose to use an example when it suits you, then toss it when it doesn't, which is the wishy-washy behavior seen many times over in the gay rights movement.
    Correct, it's not your place to 'decide' when people should fight for equal rights.. just like it wasn't whitey's place to tell you when to fight for yours.

    It's a gay struggle in the overarching umbrella struggle for minority civil rights. It's a big tent, move the fuck over. You don't own it. It compares in a number of ways, has a bunch of similarities, and yet is different enough to have some of its own unique identifiers... but it's still CIVIL RIGHTS.

    it's not using any momentum from black civil rights, considering most of that has been resolved. It's drawing a parallel, something you and every other straight black person seem to get anal about, like somehow we're taking away from your struggle, like somehow noticing the similarities somehow devalues what you (not you specifically, but your forbears) went through.

    Again, shallow and petty.

    Do you enter restaurants through the back door?
    No, do you?

    Are you forced to drink from fountains labeled "gay"?
    No, are you?

    Are you denied access to events because you are gay?
    No, are you denied access to events because you're black?

    Were you denied education because you are you?
    No, were you?

    Are not allowed to own land?
    yes, are you somehow prevented from this?

    You didn't have to fight for any of that. You yourself.


    The last time I checked, none of that applied, so no, the cases are not the same.
    Can you marry your spouse? Yes.

    Do you enjoy all the legal protections of being straight and married? Yes.

    Do you enjoy financial benefits of being straight and married? Yes.

    Can you be fired for being straight? No.

    Can you be denied work because you're black? Not legally.

    do you have religious assholes preventing you from these rights? No.

    Different rights, same struggle. Same enemies.

    Take this struggle as your own. Stand on your own two feet and stop trying to connect to a past event which had a different foundation.
    Oh we do but we aren't ignorant enough to ignore past historical precedent others had to endure against the same implacable enemies with the same stupid, illogical reasons. Civil rights are civil rights. Ours are an offshoot.. interracial marriage? not being hired due to skin color in the past? being denied rights due to something YOU CANNOT CHANGE, for reasons that are illogical?

    Gay transcends ethnic boundaries, we're YOU whether you acknowledge that in the past, present, future.. or not.

    You're going to have to accept it. Your struggle isn't unique.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  5. #35
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Again, tell it to that guy. Same shit, different pile.
    Just because you have a black guy holding up a sign saying that 'gay is the new black' doesn't make the two civil rights movements equatable. And that's not saying one is better than the other, but they aren't the same.

    Gays can freely go out and vote without fear of being killed or threatened. That wasn't the case with blacks, which is why the government had to sign the Voter Rights Act.

    Gays can freely go to any schools that they want, without having to have the national guard escort them inside. That wasn't the case with blacks in the 60's when they were integrating schools.

    There aren't signs on businesses stating 'gay only' and 'straight only.' Back in the 60's, there were 'white only' and 'black only' businesses and entrances.

    During all of the marches protesting Prop 8 around the country, police departments weren't unleashing dogs and hoses on gays at every turn. Wasn't the case with blacks in the 60's marching for civil rights, especially in the south.

    So, you can just say 'same shit, different pile' all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that many of the basic civil rights that gays have, and take for granted, are civil rights that blacks had to fight for. And that's why the movements aren't the same.

  6. #36
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Yeah, and the reverse is the same. A lot of things you never had to fight for we have to. SAME SHIT, DIFFERENT PILE. Get it?

    CIVIL RIGHTS.

    We have to fight for some you enjoy now

    You had to fight for some we enjoy now.

    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  7. #37
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Blacks DID have to fight for the right to get married. Because black marriages weren't considered legal during slavery, and it wasn't until after reconstruction when black marriages were being recognized by the law.

    And then blacks had to fight for the right to be able to marry outside of their race in the 60's, because interracial marriage was illegal. So, that point is moot.

  8. #38
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Oh goody! Then another similarity in the struggles. Thanks
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  9. #39
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Nice try. But when gays lose the right to freely vote, and are being told where they can and can't go, and have to sit in the back of the bus, and are being banned from schools and neighborhoods by legal ordinances, then you can start equating the movements as the same. While there are some similarities, there aren't enough to make them comparable.

  10. #40
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Awww, still miffed and wanting to be special eh.

    get kicked out of the military for being black? No?

    Ever get murdered by your own family for being black? Nah

    When's the last time a rap club got threatned with bioterrorism?

    No black catered clubs ever been blown up?

    Uhhuh.

    Same shit, different pile.

    Suck it up, guys. We can toss around indignities all day, or you can put your pride and special status away.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  11. #41
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Special status? Your argument loses any validity when you consider that the majority of the basic civil rights that gays already freely have are rights that blacks had to fight for. And the civil rights movement of the 60's made most of those civil rights that gays and other minority groups enjoy possible. Oh, by the way:

    Try being shot and lynched for being black.

    Try being told that you can't exercise your LEGAL right to vote, because you'll either be shot, killed or jailed.

    Try being unknowingly injected with diseases like they did with blacks in the south with the Tuskegee Experiment.

    Try being told that you aren't even considered a full human being, which the The Constitution of the United States stipulated.

    And blacks were banned from joining the military for years. And when the army first started integrating many of the blacks troops were being tormented by their fellow white soldiers.

    Blacks churches have been firebombed from the 60's through the present day

    So, you can keep trying to make the two civil rights movement comparable all you want, but they aren't. The gay civil rights movements needs to stand on it's own two feet and not try to piggyback on the civil rights movements of the 60's. Because it shouldn't have to.

  12. #42
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    Try being shot and lynched for being black.
    shot, tied to a fence, beaten, left for dead, dragged, incarcerated, murdered by family, murdered by mobs, you name it, we've had it done. Want to go back to ancient Rome?

    Try being told that you can exercise your LEGAL right to vote, because you'll either be shot, killed or jailed.
    See above.

    Try being unknowingly injected with diseases like they did with blacks in the south with the Tuskegee Experiment.
    Try being put into concentration camps, experimented on, torn apart, starved, and then STILL left for dead when 'liberators' came for everybody else but gays.. some liberators, i might add, that were entire black regiments.

    Try being told that you aren't even considered a full human being, which the The Constitution of the United States stipulated.
    Try being a second class citizen with less rights than a foreigner. Try being having titty mags shoved in your face and being called a faggot at work, and then being fired when you seek disciplinary action and having no legal recourse. Try being fired for no reason other than being gay. Try having no legal recourse at all. This just happened the other day to a friend.

    And blacks were banned from joining the military for years. And when the army first started integrating many of the blacks troops were being tormented by their fellow white soldiers.
    Try being gay and in the military, where you're tormented, beaten, kicked out and denied partner benefits. I believe glenn close did a movie about it.

    Blacks churches have been firebombed from the 60's through the present day
    Same happens in gay clubs, and we've had more than our share of riots.

    So, you can keep trying to make the two civil rights movement comparable all you want, but they aren't. Because the majority of the basic civil rights that gays already freely have are rights that blacks had to fight for. And the civil rights movement of the 60's made most of those civil rights that gays and other minority groups enjoy possible.
    Again, you enjoy rights we dont have, and you had to fight the same people for ones we already do. Same shit, different pile.

    We can keep going. Doesn't this even resonate on how SIMILAR it all is? Probably not. You're still trying to separate the two, when they're even more intertwined the further we go. How about all the black gays from back in the day that had to endure BOTH sets of indignities?
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  13. #43
    Gold Member mamaste's Avatar
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    It's funny. I bet you right now is the perfect time to repeal DOMA and pass a same sex marriage law. The only people worried about gays getting married are people with jobs.

  14. #44
    Elite Member JamieElizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Absolutely.

    but

    KC, don't even bother. The gay rights movement is going to continue to latch on to the black civil rights=gay civil rights methodology regardless of the fact the civil rights in question ARE NOT THE SAME, which your post succinctly pointed out. Notice this:

    Of course most gay people think their movement is the same as the black civil rights movement, when in fact, gay people have many of the the very rights blacks did not. While the rights the gay movement seek, namely marriage, would fall under the blanket term of civil rights, the situations are totally different and should be admitted to be.
    I agree to disagree.

    To me, it comes down to how we are looking things, societies age and decay.

    There's obviously some difference between what Grimm has been explaining, as being the Scandanavian model to politics versus our own.

    There's obviously some relationship between the environment, that this country doesn't acknowledge.

    For whatever reason. It's just a different that way we looking.

    I just don't see our views, as holding any longevity or pertinance to those.
    Last edited by JamieElizabeth; January 13th, 2009 at 03:24 PM.

  15. #45
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    *snort* true.

    I say attach it to whatever budget crap Obama is dredging up and dare the Rethugs to counter it.

    They won't though, they're pussies.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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