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Thread: Why do Republicans see free universal health care as a bad thing?

  1. #31
    Silver Member albatross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrsMarsters View Post
    ^^ Yeah, I know. I would love for there to be free health care, however I am afraid of how screwed up it would be over here...
    Things are already screwed up here.

    Over 60% of personal bankruptcies are related to medical bills, and 75% of those families had insurance when they got sick. The problem is that when you get sick it's gets hard to work, so you lose your job, and with it, your insurance. So, you can't pay your medical bills, or other bills, and soon you lose your house, which drives down property values for your neighbors.

    The fact is that the setup of our health care system means that most middle-class families are just one major illness away from bankruptcy. Our health care system doesn't provide any safety net because it disappears when we need most - when we're sick.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManxMouse View Post
    Things gots to change, but we should do some serious reflection about how to proceed. I have heard truly awful things about the NHS in the U.K. This is from users of the system, but also from my friend who was trained as a doctor there. Absolute horror stories about the patient/doctor ratio while training, the doctor contract and placement bureaucracy leading to big doctor shortages and a disincentive to go into the field, and downright dangerous practices.All due to being run by politicians who know nothing about medicine. She left and now practices in the U.S. (Florida), where she does NOT think it's perfect at all, but believes a government-run system would be a disaster here. I do think there's a middle ground between what could work here and the NHS, I just think some are too quick to jump on anyone who has concerns as someone who's a right-wing dickhead.
    You can hear and read horror stories about the health care system in the US.

    We spend more per capita by far than any other nation, yet we're 50th in life expectancy. So, clearly, what we're doing does not work.

    As for politicians knowing nothing about medicine, right now, bureaucrats in insurance companies, who know nothing about medicine, are making decisions about your health care today. Doctors can't do anything without an insurance company approving it.

    My mother spent years in pain because HMOs have a policy that people under 60 years old cannot get a hip replacement - she was 52 when she was told she needed one. By the time her employer offered a PPO, both of her hips needed replacing (because she had been overcompensating due to the pain). If she had had to wait until 60, she would have been in a wheelchair and possibly have destroyed her liver or kidneys due to the pain meds. She was lucky because eventually, her employer gave her another option for insurance, but even then she didn't know if the bureaucrats at that company would let her have the surgery, she just knew the ones at the HMOs definitely wouldn't, and it was her only hope to end the pain.
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  2. #32
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    I don't get that whole "restrictions" thing people are so terrified about.. oh the government will choose your doctor for you, you cant go anywhere else, this and that..

    That's fucking hilarious LOL

    I pick my doctor by calling around, seeing who has a good recommendation and then asking his office if he's taking any new patients.

    That's IT.

    For small things i just waltz into a walk-in clinic and have some GP look at me and either refer me somewhere else (hospital, specialist) if it's serious, or if not i get a prescription and a note saying i need a day or 2 off work.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  3. #33
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    As for politicians knowing nothing about medicine, right now, bureaucrats in insurance companies, who know nothing about medicine, are making decisions about your health care today.

    And while a corporate bureaucrat has a profit motive to deny care, and even rescind your insurance if you get sick, (many of them get a bonus based on the number of recissions) a gov't bureaucrat would be completely neutral and dropping coverage because of illness would not be an option with universal healthcare.

  4. #34
    Silver Member albatross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    I don't get that whole "restrictions" thing people are so terrified about.. oh the government will choose your doctor for you, you cant go anywhere else, this and that..

    That's fucking hilarious LOL

    I pick my doctor by calling around, seeing who has a good recommendation and then asking his office if he's taking any new patients.

    That's IT.

    For small things i just waltz into a walk-in clinic and have some GP look at me and either refer me somewhere else (hospital, specialist) if it's serious, or if not i get a prescription and a note saying i need a day or 2 off work.
    What's really stupid is that with the US health care system, every year people have to check the medical plans to see if their doctor is available under the plan they want (employers change the plans offered, doctors stop accepting certain plans, etc.). I've known people that have had to give up their doctor because none of the medical plans offered by their employer includes all of the doctors for their family members, so they've had to choose which doctor was most important to be able to see, and other family members had to switch to new doctors.

    Our choices are limited by employers looking to minimize costs and insurance companies looking to maximize profits. That is a stupid way to handle health care.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    As for politicians knowing nothing about medicine, right now, bureaucrats in insurance companies, who know nothing about medicine, are making decisions about your health care today.

    And while a corporate bureaucrat has a profit motive to deny care, and even rescind your insurance if you get sick, (many of them get a bonus based on the number of recissions) a gov't bureaucrat would be completely neutral and dropping coverage because of illness would not be an option with universal healthcare.
    Some insurance companies have a policy of denying all claims right off the bat. Worst case, if someone is persistent, the company will eventually have to pay, but a lot of people just assume the company had a reason for the denial and don't fight it.
    Last edited by Tati; June 19th, 2009 at 04:51 PM.
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  5. #35
    Elite Member louiswinthorpe111's Avatar
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    ^^That's what United does.

  6. #36
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    ^^Don't I know it. We had UH a few years ago and had to fight tooth and nail over every claim. So glad the company dumped that crap. BCBS is slightly better in that respect.

  7. #37
    Elite Member ManxMouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    As for politicians knowing nothing about medicine, right now, bureaucrats in insurance companies, who know nothing about medicine, are making decisions about your health care today.

    And while a corporate bureaucrat has a profit motive to deny care, and even rescind your insurance if you get sick, (many of them get a bonus based on the number of recissions) a gov't bureaucrat would be completely neutral and dropping coverage because of illness would not be an option with universal healthcare.
    Then why is the NHS so fucked up?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManxMouse View Post
    Then why is the NHS so fucked up?

    Well, I have no idea since I live in the US. But is the NHS in the habit of denying care or cutting people off when they get sick?

  9. #39
    Silver Member albatross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManxMouse View Post
    Then why is the NHS so fucked up?
    Personally, I don't know that NHS is that fucked up. Most of my friends in the UK are satisfied with their health care. They go see doctors, they get treated when they're sick, they don't worry about losing their health coverage if they lose their jobs...Do they think it could be better? Sure, but they like it much better than what they know of our system.

    On the other hand, most of my friends here hate the US system. Most of us live in fear of actually getting sick because none of us can afford it. Hell, it's getting more and more expensive to have health insurance even when you're healthy.

    So, what exactly do you think is so great about the US system?
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  10. #40
    Elite Member ManxMouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by albatross View Post
    Personally, I don't know that NHS is that fucked up. Most of my friends in the UK are satisfied with their health care. They go see doctors, they get treated when they're sick, they don't worry about losing their health coverage if they lose their jobs...Do they think it could be better? Sure, but they like it much better than what they know of our system.

    On the other hand, most of my friends here hate the US system. Most of us live in fear of actually getting sick because none of us can afford it. Hell, it's getting more and more expensive to have health insurance even when you're healthy.

    So, what exactly do you think is so great about the US system?
    See, this is the kind of attitude I'm talking about. I never said the US system is so great, in fact I said just the opposite. Why people get so defensive, I don't know. In fact, the NHS does deny care -- cancer drugs that are deemed too expensive is one example, and the dental system is in serious crisis, making it difficult to see a dentist at all. Furthermore, it's not at all geared towards preventative care -- checkups, routine screenings, etc. I do know this because I have a lot of family over there.
    Santa is an elitist mother fucker -- giving expensive shit to rich kids and nothing to poor kids.

  11. #41
    Elite Member vballchica134's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cupcake View Post
    So I will be able to keep my current insurance company. Will it be mandatory to carry it on employees and If I dont want to pay for insurance can I just cancel my policy and get free healthcare?
    That's what happened in Hawaii last year ...

    HONOLULU, Oct. 17, 2008

    Hawaii Ending Universal Child Health Care

    Citing Budget Shortfalls, Only State With Universal Coverage Eliminates Funding After 7 Months

    (AP) Hawaii is dropping the only state universal child health care program in the United States just seven months after it launched.

    Gov. Linda Lingle's administration cited budget shortfalls and other available health care options for eliminating funding for the program.

    A state official said families were dropping private coverage so their children would be eligible for the subsidized plan.

    "People who were already able to afford health care began to stop paying for it so they could get it for free," said Dr. Kenny Fink, the administrator for Med-QUEST at the Department of Human Services. "I don't believe that was the intent of the program."

    State officials said Thursday they will stop giving health coverage to the 2,000 children enrolled by Nov. 1, but private partner Hawaii Medical Service Association will pay to extend their coverage through the end of the year without government support.

    "We're very disappointed in the state's decision, and it came as a complete surprise to us," said Jennifer Diesman, a spokeswoman for HMSA, the state's largest health care provider. "We believe the program is working, and given Hawaii's economic uncertainty, we don't think now is the time to cut all funding for this kind of program."

    Hawaii lawmakers approved the health plan in 2007 as a way to ensure every child can get basic medical help. The Keiki (child) Care program aimed to cover every child from birth to 18 years old who didn't already have health insurance - mostly immigrants and members of lower-income families.

    State health officials argued that most of the children enrolled in the universal child care program previously had private health insurance, indicating that it was helping those who didn't need it.

    The U.S. is one of the few western countries that does not have universal health care, although many states have government programs to help parents cover their children.

    Hawaii Ending Universal Child Health Care - CBS News

  12. #42
    Silver Member albatross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManxMouse View Post
    See, this is the kind of attitude I'm talking about. I never said the US system is so great, in fact I said just the opposite. Why people get so defensive, I don't know. In fact, the NHS does deny care -- cancer drugs that are deemed too expensive is one example, and the dental system is in serious crisis, making it difficult to see a dentist at all. Furthermore, it's not at all geared towards preventative care -- checkups, routine screenings, etc. I do know this because I have a lot of family over there.
    My attitude is based on the fact that you've chosen to focus on one single alternative to the US health care system - NHS, like that is the only choice we have. Lots of other countries have figured out how to provide health care to their citizens, some better than others, but you've chosen to focus on just one of those options.

    There is no perfect system, but the US has probably the worst possible system, as evidenced by the huge costs vs. actual results. It's crippling our economy, and all anyone seems to do when the discussion comes up is to bring up the specter of socialism or point to horror stories from systems like NHS, because fear is the only argument that our political system seems to be able muster up these days.

    Personally, I view systems like NHS as providing catastrophic coverage. It's there to cover you when you're sick, but it's not necessarily intended to keep you well. If you supplement a system like that with private insurance, then you just might get a workable system for a reasonable cost.
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  13. #43
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    I like the thought of universal health care in the US. So many small businesses can no longer afford to shell out for it even if they want to. It would make things much easier for small businesses. Large corporations have it easier because they have more bargaining power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManxMouse View Post
    Then why is the NHS so fucked up?
    1) British conservatives tell nightmarish stories about NHS as part of their political agenda because they'd love to see all social programs wiped out, like it almost happened back in the 80's under the Iron Lady's rule

    2) People tend to complain about everything and they feel entitled to do so about NHS. Of course, their bitching is aimed towards waiting lines and bad hospital food, which pale in comparison to being denied healthcare because they cannot simply afford it or due to pre-existing conditions.

    Most of the anti-UHC crowd says that if enacted it would only help the poor (because they don't dare to say inner-city minorities, which is the true meaning of the euphemistical word "poor"). See what, most of those who live in poverty get free healthcare through state sponsored programs such as Medicaid. Those who would actually benefit from UHC would be the working and middle classes, the ones who are in real danger of being fucked-up forever if they have cancer and need long-term treatments.

    People who support private insurance can argue "well, I needed an apendicetomy and got surgery the very same day, and was able to recover in a nice bedroom with charming nurses"
    Do you know how much would you pay for an apendicetmy if you were uninsured? About $18,000, which is a scam, as it's a very basic surgery that any doctor straight out of residence could perform.

    The problem comes when you are diagnosed with cancer and the insurance company tells you to fuck off. So you have to make your choice: die or file in for bankruptcy.
    Last edited by Tati; June 21st, 2009 at 08:54 AM.

  15. #45
    Elite Member nana55's Avatar
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    When I was forced to retire at 58 from my school job due to budget cuts, I was able to keep my free insurance, yay! However my husband could not longer be on it, he has to pay $340.00 a month just for him. He's not old enough for Medicare yet. He has used the insurance twice in almost 30 years. He is ridiculously healthy. He bikes 50 miles every Sunday for fun, is a mechanic on Mercedes which is very physical and is never ill. How fair is that. At age 63 you can't just pick up any insurance.
    My sister who had a stroke and had to quit work is on 100% disability, lost her health insurance when she had to quit. She has a very small income coming in, her husband is on social security and Medicare, but she cannot get insurance. She can't afford outside insurance with her existing health problems, and keeps getting turned down for federal health insurance because they own 2 vehicles and an old boat. They also "own" their own home. So I guess they are too rich. Their house is worth maybe $100,000, their car and truck are old, the boat is a bucket of bolts. She has been turned down 3 times. She needs some sort of insurance as she also has diabetes and back problems. She needs back surgery but can't get it. So it gets worse and worse. So how anyone can defend this "health" system we have I'll never know.
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