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Thread: Why anybody against national healthcare is a fucking idiot

  1. #46
    Gold Member mamaste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    She wasn't denied a PET scan, the scanners they had were being used for other things. They didn't have any devoted to patients beyond the one doing cardiovascular work. It's not like they can just point it at you and BEEP, ok here's your cancer. If it's being calibrated for other things, whole other software and calibration is needed. It's specific.

    What IS stupid is that they don't have any of these particular scanners doing any cancer related work like the one in Quebec.

    In the end, no system is perfect, There's always gonna be holes. Hell, if this lady had lived in quebec she would have gotten it done right away. Not all provinces have the same facilities.
    I agree there are weaknesses. I never said the Candian plan is bad. As for the rest, all I know is what Sam told me and everyone else. I'd ask her to come and tell you herself, but she can't. She's dead.

    Taffy, I always thought Canadians were all in love with the plan, but there are some people (A minority I think) who feel otherwise. The big difference here in the States is those who dislike the plan are far more vocal and visible despite holding a minority viewpoint. Unfortunately, they're speaking for all of us.

  2. #47
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    the minority that feel otherwise are mostly conservatives with lots of cash who don't see what the problem is with doing away with the system that helps the 99% of the rest of the country.

    It's funny, the only time health care in this country suffers is when retard conservatives cut funding and then declare "lower taxes!"
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    Gold Member mamaste's Avatar
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    Nearly everyone I know who is against UHC in Canada either works in the medical field or for the government, traditionally fields where people get great coverage anyway. I think they know that changes to UHC wouldn't impact them.

  4. #49
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    medical field: want more money

    government: conservatives
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  5. #50
    Friend of Gossip Rocks! buttmunch's Avatar
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    Oh I believe you. But the fact remains that there are people in other countries where healthcare is subsidized/nationalized/whatever that are unable to pay for treatment without making sacrifices. Show me a place where NOBODY has to struggle to pay medical bills and I'll show you a Utopia.
    That would probably be Sweden then since you don't pay for medical care there, other than through taxes which you have to pay anyway. I had several operations there and both the heathens and it didn't cost me one thin dime. Regular doctor visits cost about 5 bucks and there's a yearly cap on how much you are expected to pay. In addition, if you're a hardship case you can apply for completely free medical care and you will get it. Taxes are high but services are fantastic.
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  6. #51
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    That would probably be Sweden then since you don't pay for medical care there, other than through taxes which you have to pay anyway. I had several operations there and both the heathens and it didn't cost me one thin dime. Regular doctor visits cost about 5 bucks and there's a yearly cap on how much you are expected to pay. In addition, if you're a hardship case you can apply for completely free medical care and you will get it. Taxes are high but services are fantastic.
    You're right about high taxes. The Swedes pay DOUBLE our income tax.

    The typical worker receives 40% of his income after the tax wedge. The slowly declining overall taxation, 51.1% of GDP in 2007, is still nearly double of that in the United States
    Source: Wikipedia.

    I think that is way too much tax. There needs to be more of a balance.

  7. #52
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    Actually, that's not true. Having lived and worked in Sweden I can tell you that most people are in the 27-30% tax range. And since there are only federal taxes, as it were, it's not that bad. You have to be a pretty high earner to reach the top tax bracket, which is 45%. Additionally, corporate taxes are some of the lowest in teh world, which is why so many Swedes start their own companies. You can have a personal company that costs nothing to start up or you can have a corporate company that has to have roughly 10 grand worth of 'shares' in it, which allows you to employ others. Additionally, the relatively high taxes get you more than a year parent leave when you have a kid, extremely cheap child care (which is excellent), Very highly regarded schools and a host of other benefits. It's a well-run country and worth paying somewhat higher taxes. You don't see massive amounts of mpoverty in Sweden...very little, actually. And there is help for those who need it. I highly recommend it.
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  8. #53
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    ^^^There are other taxes on top of income tax though. Here are some stats I found:
    Income tax is payable at a rate of between 26 and 35% to the municipality in which an individual resides and then on top of that there is also a national income tax which is levied at between 20 and 25%...so at best an individual will pay about 46% income tax and at worst ....you will have to pay upwards of 60% taxation.
    Source: Working in Sweden

    It's a trade off. You have fantastic health cover and education, but you pay enormously high taxes. If I double my tax at the moment, that's a massive amount I would have to pay in order to get a national health care system like the system in Sweden.

    Having said that, I passionately believe the US needs to have a national health care system. As you've said, no system is perfect and there are some very good national health care systems which work really well for the majority of people. Of all of them, I still think the Australian version is the best - it has its problems too, but generally works extremely well. They have some of the lowest taxes in the world, have a very high standard of living, and an excellent national health care system.
    Last edited by Wiseguy; August 17th, 2009 at 04:59 AM.

  9. #54
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    Those figures are not completely true since it's not quite that simplistic. I've lived there and paid taxes so know pretty well what the situation is like: it's pretty damned good getting better, due to Moderaterna taking power a few years ago. Anyway, general income tax is higher than in many other industrialized countries but that's the Nordic region for you in general. At the end of the day you get a lot of bang for your buck, there's extremely low unemployment, excellent work-life balance and generally it's reat. I may have to move back there, actually.


    *edit: just checked the Swedish Tax Agency site and the average tax for 2007 (last figures available), combining all variables including municipal, so-called hidden and state tax was 32.60 percent. You can check out a very long report on this at Skatter i Sverige - Skattestatistisk årsbok 2008 | Skatteverket [NS4 version]
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    Let's say that we are willing to make a major lifestyle change and move to one of these countries with great work life balance, low unemployment, and universal healthcare. Is there anywhere we can move that isn't so damn cold? (Canada, Sweden)

    How are your real estate prices? Can you get a nice house for under $300,000 American?

  11. #56
    Elite Member suede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet296 View Post
    I am all for socialized medicine. Yes we may go into debt. However, I would rather go in to debt getting free medical care than pointlessly invading Iraq. As far as the death panals (rolls eyes), we have that already...it's called the insurance company. How many times have we all heard about someone who needed an operation or some procedure that got denied? You think that a company that it out to make a profit is best handling your medical care decisions? Have you noticed watching the news that most of the people bitching about the health care reform are mostly seniors? Do they not stop to think that they are already using a goverment run health care plan...medicare?! No it would not be perfect. I am sure anyone who lives in a country that has this plan would agree. I still would like to have it though.
    I would also like it to be thought through first as well.

    Carpenters have a saying, "measure twice, cut once".

    That said, we're already in quite a of debt.

    U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time <---- click it
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotncmom View Post
    Let's say that we are willing to make a major lifestyle change and move to one of these countries with great work life balance, low unemployment, and universal healthcare. Is there anywhere we can move that isn't so damn cold? (Canada, Sweden)

    How are your real estate prices? Can you get a nice house for under $300,000 American?

    Sweden isn't all that cold (no more so than New England), just dark for a rather lengthy period of time. The upshot is that it's light for much of the day in the summer. This means pints at midnight and the sky is all twilight purple, then the sun comes up around 2am.
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

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    My letter to our Congressman:

    I am writing to express my support of healthcare reform now. Americans are paying far too much for healthcare - it has become a huge financial burden for most people. Please do not give up on this fight.

    Our family pays $4800 in premiums per year and we have company-sponsored healthcare. Additionally, we set aside $1600 a year in a flexible spending account. Even at this high premium cost, our coverage has been gradually reduced over the last several years such that we are now paying 20% coinsurance for tests and such that were 100% covered previously. We have spent all of our FSA this year so far and we have also paid an additional $2000 out of pocket on top of that. And we are healthy with no medical problems. The doctors just ordered some tests to be on the "safe side". So now we are struggling to meet expenses.

    I cannot imagine the anguish of those who have to independently shop for healthcare. I have heard from an insurance broker that even for those in relatively good health, a plan with a $5000 deductible is priced at $1000-1200 per month. For most Americans this is completely unaffordable. I can see why so many go without insurance.

    I encourage members of Congress to look at all options. A couple of ideas I have not seen discussed much are expansion of public health clinic networks or flat-out cost regulation of the health insurance industry. When I hear that executives are making $65 million dollar salaries and companies are making record profits while fewer and fewer Americans can afford coverage due to rising costs, I know that reform is badly needed.

    Please do not disappoint the taxpayers in your district by putting corporate interests above taxpayer interests. The preamble to the Constitution promises that the government exists to promote the general welfare. Healthcare is definitely one of the most pressing issues today.

  14. #59
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotncmom View Post
    My letter to our Congressman:

    I am writing to express my support of healthcare reform now. Americans are paying far too much for healthcare - it has become a huge financial burden for most people. Please do not give up on this fight.

    Our family pays $4800 in premiums per year and we have company-sponsored healthcare. Additionally, we set aside $1600 a year in a flexible spending account. Even at this high premium cost, our coverage has been gradually reduced over the last several years such that we are now paying 20% coinsurance for tests and such that were 100% covered previously. We have spent all of our FSA this year so far and we have also paid an additional $2000 out of pocket on top of that. And we are healthy with no medical problems. The doctors just ordered some tests to be on the "safe side". So now we are struggling to meet expenses.

    I cannot imagine the anguish of those who have to independently shop for healthcare. I have heard from an insurance broker that even for those in relatively good health, a plan with a $5000 deductible is priced at $1000-1200 per month. For most Americans this is completely unaffordable. I can see why so many go without insurance.

    I encourage members of Congress to look at all options. A couple of ideas I have not seen discussed much are expansion of public health clinic networks or flat-out cost regulation of the health insurance industry. When I hear that executives are making $65 million dollar salaries and companies are making record profits while fewer and fewer Americans can afford coverage due to rising costs, I know that reform is badly needed.

    Please do not disappoint the taxpayers in your district by putting corporate interests above taxpayer interests. The preamble to the Constitution promises that the government exists to promote the general welfare. Healthcare is definitely one of the most pressing issues today.
    Great letter. Reform needs to happen now and you've outlined so clearly the reasons why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suede View Post
    I would also like it to be thought through first as well.

    Carpenters have a saying, "measure twice, cut once".

    That said, we're already in quite a of debt.

    U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time <---- click it
    Interesting..
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