Is the United States a rogue state? - Page 2

buttmunch · September 28th, 2006, 02:53 PM

I've got to go with Grimm on this one, Soj. We run around saying that we're going to spread our way of life (democracy) around the world but we're really not a shining example of it at the moment. And saying they do it too just doesn't cut it when Bush claims to hold the moral high ground. I'm ashemed of America right now, particularly because there are so many people who don't seem to see anything wrong with some of our recent actions and decisions, namely in the area of torture and fair trial. It's an absolute disgrace and we should be better than this.

Sojiita · September 28th, 2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimmlok

Devoid of human rights: habeus corpus being eliminated for US citizens and those scooped up in the hysteria of 'terrorism fighting', indefinite detention, no legal recourse, and subjected to torture.

Actively promotes torture: new policy actively sets out, as noted above, to make torture an accepted part of interrogation and detention with all agents and personell included in said actions excused from any prosecution.

Why mention you? BECAUSE ITS A BRAND NEW BILL GOING THROUGH YOUR SENATE. That's the topic at hand. Why does it matter if everyone else on the planet eats babies or fucks pigeons., if the US prides itself on being 'the beacon of light on the hill' and then joins the rest of the muckymucck dictatorships does that somehow take away the hypocrisy?

You are talking about alot of things that are a possiblity, not actually in fact the law of the land. The fact that poeple are fighting against Bush and his fucked up shit is fact that we are NOT devoid of our human rights here-if we were there would be silence about this shit here-and it is not silent here. And many of us do not want to be any kind of an example to the rest of the world-this particular fucked up Administration (that is now diissapproved of by most of us) may think that-but not all of us. Please do not paint us collectively with such a broad brush, and take selective things(that really are disturbing) and exaggerate them(like the 'being devoid of human rights' thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by buttmunch

I've got to go with Grimm on this one, Soj. We run around saying that we're going to spread our way of life (democracy) around the world but we're really not a shining example of it at the moment. And saying they do it too just doesn't cut it when Bush claims to hold the moral high ground. I'm ashemed of America right now, particularly because there are so many people who don't seem to see anything wrong with some of our recent actions and decisions, namely in the area of torture and fair trial. It's an absolute disgrace and we should be better than this.

Your 'we' does not include me. And Bush may claim to hold the moral high ground, but many regular citizens do not-maybe we need to distinguish more between the US, the US government, and the current administration in power(by theft by the way). I am not ashamed of America right now-I am ashamed and disgusted by the current lying bullshit administration.

Grimmlok · September 28th, 2006, 02:57 PM

LOL what fighting? All levels of government have given it the A-Ok!

The only possible recourse is the supreme court, but Bush can brush them aside any time he wants. The level of power in the executive branch, coupled with a rubber stamp congress and a non-existent opposition means dictatorship.

Secondly, when you don't have habeas corpus, you dont have ANYTHING. That's the foundation, the cornerstone of human rights. If you can be detained, tortured, imprisoned for life without charge, and paraded in front of a tribunal where you never see evidence against you, YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS.

What part of that is hard to understand? They can scoop you up and waterboard you till you die, revive you, do it again, and keep you locked away until you finally expire. That is, if they dont ship you somewhere more horrible for even worse torture.

YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS. The executive branch decides what is torture, who is the threat, and what they can do with you.. you have absolutely NO WAY to fight it.

What would you call that, if not a total lack of rights?

buttmunch · September 28th, 2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Your 'we' does not include me. And Bush may claim to hold the moral high ground, but many regular citizens do not-maybe we need to distinguish more between the US, the US government, and the current administration in power(by theft by the way). I am not ashamed of America right now-I am ashamed and disgusted by the current lying bullshit administration.

Ok, fair enough. I get pissed as well when I'm lumped together with all the crazies in America when I know damn well it isn't MY fault things are going the way they are. But I am ashamed of the way any number of people agree with the methods of this administration...and those are just regular, everyday Joes and Jills. It's sad and says something about the mindset of many of our countrymen and women. And at the end of the day, very few of us are putting our money where our mouths are, ie. getting off our asses and making a stand against this administrations decisions, no matter what the personal cost to ourselves, our families or our friends.

Grimmlok · September 28th, 2006, 03:08 PM

Kinda hard to make a stand when nobody will dare a nationwide mass civil disobedience and strike because half of them agree with torturing people and having no rights.

I honestly think the US is ripe for a civil war, one that has been some time in the making.

Go kick some JesusLand ass!

Sojiita · September 28th, 2006, 03:08 PM

^^The whole battle going on is regarding NON-CITIZENS Grimm...right?

*shit I HATE when I use the little arrows and the page is cut off!!*

I honestly think the US is ripe for a civil war, one that has been some time in the making.

^^Well this statement does not support the idea that the nation is a cowering jumble of sheep blindly following Bush&Co. down the trail to fascism now does it? This adminisitration is DYING and will be out on it's ass for any number of reasons. And much of the shit that has been going down will not be going down forever. It says alot about this country that we do have the ability to fight our shitty government and there is a great probability that much of this shit will be reversed and Bush and Bushism will be out on it's ass. You cannot say the same for most of the other so called rogue states now can you?

Grimmlok · September 28th, 2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sojiita

^^The whole battle going on is regarding NON-CITIZENS Grimm...right?

No, it involves ANYBODY scooped up. There are US citizens detained as we speak, who've been locked away for 5 years.

Even so, it's irrelevant given that torture is torture and lack of Geneva Convention protections is still lack of rights.

but that doesn't seem to matter to the crazies, those people are just darkies, will never happen to them or anybody THEY know...

buttmunch · September 28th, 2006, 03:18 PM

Quote:

It says alot about this country that we do have the ability to fight our shitty government and there is a great probability that much of this shit will be reversed and Bush and Bushism will be out on it's ass. You cannot say the same for most of the other so called rogue states now can you?

A good point, Soj, because if we were living in any number of other countries we wouldn't be allowed to do what we're all sitting here doing now. ON the other hand. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and I'm a bit nervous that many of the people in power right now are quite happy to hang on to their power at all costs. And I include any number of lefties in that equation. It's a scary situation at the moment and I will reserve judgement on how much will be reversed post-shrub until I actually see it happening.

Sojiita · September 28th, 2006, 03:46 PM

Also I should clarify that while I would not call the US a 'rogue state'..I think it is certainly sliding in that direction right now..hopefully this slide can be arrested before we really do fit that bill to a T.

buttmunch · September 28th, 2006, 03:51 PM

Vote in the mid-terms and encourage every single person you know to do the same. Hell, I'll vote for the Green Party if I think they'll stop this merry mess.

Sojiita · September 28th, 2006, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buttmunch

Vote in the mid-terms and encourage every single person you know to do the same. Hell, I'll vote for the Green Party if I think they'll stop this merry mess.

I most certainly will vote! my parents too! I have already today since noon gotten 2 more repug political calls-one was all about the 'terror threat' and attacked of all places The United Arab Emirates..lol I waited for over 3 hours to vote against Bush so you can bet I will be out there voting-especially to help defeat the evil fucking bastard called J Kenneth Blackwell-to all Ohioans vote for STRICKLAND!! Blackwell is the anti-christ and sucks the devil's cock!