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Thread: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

  1. #211
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobelia
    Well, then I guess you need to define "horribly screwed up" because that, in your opinion, is not worthy of life.
    Like, elephant man screwed up. in horrible pain. hooked up to machines their whole lives. twisted, sick, and miserable creatures.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  2. #212
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobelia
    Maybe I'm on ignore.

    This "anti-choice" bs has also been addressed.
    I was reading and responding..just got to the end.
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  3. #213
    Elite Member Lobelia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    People all throughout history, as well as recently, have privately & collectively stood back & done nothing while genocide took place.

    Pro-lifers simply believe they are trying to protect human life. I simply do not understand why some people refuse to *get* that. They do not give a sorry rats ass what people do with their bodies, as long as they're not killing humans in the process.

    I am so sick of this "don't legislate what I do with MY body" shit because we're talking about another person here!

    That's what it all boils down to. When does it become a person? I've never heard a single argument that sounds any better than another. I struggle with the "when it becomes able to live on its own" argument, because nobody can pinpoint the exact magic moment during that third trimester that the lump of worthless cells becomes a human being.

    Yet, to say that a 3rd trimester fetus isn't worthy of being called a baby if it finds itself outside a female uterus is ridiculous. Just ridiculous. It's the same creature it was 15 minutes ago when it was IN the uterus, but now it's in an incubator, or bassinet or whatever, and it's a BABY now so what the hell was it 15 minutes ago?
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  4. #214
    Hit By Ban Bus! DirtyPool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    I say life begins at conception. I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way.

  5. #215
    Elite Member Lobelia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    Like, elephant man screwed up. in horrible pain. hooked up to machines their whole lives. twisted, sick, and miserable creatures.
    Well, that raises a couple of interesting issues. First of all, you might not know that was the case before you pulled it out a little & killed it. Unless you took ultrasounds & whatnot, and knew.

    The interesting part is.... some people would think it would be ok to euthanize a baby in that condition, no matter what the circumstances of its birth. How many billions of times has it been done? Is that wrong?

    It's all very heady.

    ETA: I won't deny that my own personal morality overlaps & contradicts itself at times. I'm not perfect, and I don't have all the answers.
    "I've cautiously embraced jeggings"
    Emma Peel aka Pacific Breeze aka Wilde1 aka gogodancer aka maribou

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  6. #216
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobelia
    People all throughout history, as well as recently, have privately & collectively stood back & done nothing while genocide took place.
    Yes, the entire human race is threatened. Could we be any more dramatic?

    Pro-lifers simply believe they are trying to protect human life. I simply do not understand why some people refuse to *get* that.
    And in saving those little clumps of cells and half formed human potential, you give yourselves the right to control what women do with their own bodies, despite what would be in their best interest. Who are you?

    They do not give a sorry rats ass what people do with their bodies, as long as they're not killing humans in the process.
    Yes, a fetus is a fully formed and cognisant human being with its own hopes and dreams.

    riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

    I am so sick of this "don't legislate what I do with MY body" shit because we're talking about another person here!
    No, we aren't. Even a freshly born baby is just a bag of autonomic responses that GRADUALLY grows over time. It's not BORN a person.

    That's what it all boils down to. When does it become a person? I've never heard a single argument that sounds any better than another. I struggle with the "when it becomes able to live on its own" argument, because nobody can pinpoint the exact magic moment during that third trimester that the lump of worthless cells becomes a human being.
    So why are you trying to legislate like you know?

    Yet, to say that a 3rd trimester fetus isn't worthy of being called a baby if it finds itself outside a female uterus is ridiculous. Just ridiculous. It's the same creature it was 15 minutes ago when it was IN the uterus, but now it's in an incubator, or bassinet or whatever, and it's a BABY now so what the hell was it 15 minutes ago?
    Again, at what point is it a person? Again, how do you know? Again, if you don't know, why are you trying to legislate like you DO know?

    Divine providence?
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  7. #217
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobelia
    Just because some people don't believe it, it doesn't make it so, either.



    It's not absurd, if you give the other viewpoint any kind of respect at all. My whole post that you quoted was all about giving each side respect for its views.



    It would look like murder to some people. That's my whole point. People have different viewpoints for very valid reasons.



    That's stereotyping, and it's not accurate or fair. It does nothing to promote any kind of understanding.



    You can't speak for everybody, and my point stands even if you were right. Which I don't think you are.
    I meant my arguments in a broader way than just the specific concept of partial birth abortions that is the explicit context for the thread, since the argument moved into abortion in general, values, etc. My comments are more toward abortion in general and not so much for partial birth abortion or late terms abortions. As was noted previously by another poster, this explicit(and rarely rare)i procedure forms and issue that is used as a way and means of furthering the criminalization of all abortions. I personally would hope that any woman who was in a late stage pregnancy would not choice to have an abortion unless her life was at stake, or if she had somehow been molested or raped and did not know this until her pregnancy was late term(and this last scenario is not so likely, huh?).
    *just a statistic for the pro-lifers..you think abortion is bad here and now? In the former Soviet Union in the 1980's, it was determined that, averaged out, that every Soviet woman of childbearing age would average out to having at least SIX abortions in her lifetime! Now THAT is abortion as birth control! *
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  8. #218
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    bitches, i'm off to bed. Have fun trying to take personal responsibility away from people.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  9. #219
    Elite Member Lobelia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    Yes, the entire human race is threatened. Could we be any more dramatic?
    [QUOTE=Grimmlok]

    It IS dramatic. Very dramatic. I am not making it so. If you believe that life starts at conception, abortion is very akin to genocide.

    And in saving those little clumps of cells and half formed human potential, you give yourselves the right to control what women do with their own bodies, despite what would be in their best interest. Who are you?
    The hypothetical "I" (since I never advocated abolishing abortion in general, just partial-birth) would STILL believe that I was saving human life, that the mothers & her accomplices were trying to snuff out. If that wasn't going on, you'd never be pestered by the hypothetical me.


    Yes, a fetus is a fully formed and cognisant human being with its own hopes and dreams.

    riiiiiiiiiiiiight.
    Cognisance & hopes & dreams constitute human life? There are people all over the planet with none of these three things.

    No, we aren't. Even a freshly born baby is just a bag of autonomic responses that GRADUALLY grows over time. It's not BORN a person.
    Not born a person... hmmm... I'm not going to go look up "person" on dictionary.com but this is a new one for me. To say that a baby isn't a person? That's so out in left field for me that I can't even address it. It's most certainly human life. How do you define person?

    So why are you trying to legislate like you know?
    Because I strongly believe that it's murder to partially pull out a viable fetus & kill it. I never advocated any other type of legislation on this matter.

    Again, at what point is it a person? Again, how do you know? Again, if you don't know, why are you trying to legislate like you DO know?

    Divine providence
    There's that person word again. I am wondering if you mean something different than "human" or something. At the beginning of this thread, you mentioned legal definitions as evidence against my points. Well, back at'cha. Babies in incubators are definitely legal persons. If the one in OR 4 didn't get its brains sucked out, it would have been a legal person.
    "I've cautiously embraced jeggings"
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    Yip, yip, yip in your tiny indignation. Bark furiously on, lady dog.

  10. #220
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobelia
    People all throughout history, as well as recently, have privately & collectively stood back & done nothing while genocide took place.

    Pro-lifers simply believe they are trying to protect human life. I simply do not understand why some people refuse to *get* that. They do not give a sorry rats ass what people do with their bodies, as long as they're not killing humans in the process.

    I am so sick of this "don't legislate what I do with MY body" shit because we're talking about another person here!

    That's what it all boils down to. When does it become a person? I've never heard a single argument that sounds any better than another. I struggle with the "when it becomes able to live on its own" argument, because nobody can pinpoint the exact magic moment during that third trimester that the lump of worthless cells becomes a human being.

    Yet, to say that a 3rd trimester fetus isn't worthy of being called a baby if it finds itself outside a female uterus is ridiculous. Just ridiculous. It's the same creature it was 15 minutes ago when it was IN the uterus, but now it's in an incubator, or bassinet or whatever, and it's a BABY now so what the hell was it 15 minutes ago?
    I at least am not talking about late term here. I am just engaged in the broader abortion issue. This issue is just being used as a slippery-slope device to ban ALL abortions. And people say "MY BODY" because to them, not you, it is NOT another person that is being talked about. And if people are so unsure about how and when 'life' begins, then how can they be so sure as to support legislation that will deny other people the basick right to have freedom over their own bodies? And you stated opinions that refer to abortion in broad terms and it is those responses that I am responding to. And there is a distinct difference between early and late stage pregnancy, as the pic Grimm provided pointed out very clearly. And I have to disagree with you on 'life' starting before birth. Even if it is capable of being born and surviving it still is 'unborn' and it is not a life...if it is then we are basically saying that 'life' starts before life..since we consider people to be alive once they are born. Even if it has the potential to live once it is born, until it is born it is not yet alive-it is not free from the womb. We refer in this country to people being 'alive' when they are born, not when they are conceived. Life starts at birth and ends with death in this country. That is the fact.

    Let us say that a woman is nine months pregnant. The fetus is perfectly capable of being born and surviving and being a child. the woman falls down the stairs and breaks her neck..and is dead. She is descovered 40 minutes later and rushed to the hospital, and they try to deliver the fetus, but are unsuccessful. Was the fetus ever alive?..did it have a birth date and death date? Is it considered 'a human life' Is it seen as having 'lived'. No. It was seen as having the potential to live. Until it is born it is not a child IMO. I don't support the general idea of women having late tern abortions, but I also cannot see them as murder since you cannot murder something that has not lived yet, that officially cannot be considered a human life at all.
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  11. #221
    Elite Member Lobelia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    Well, before it got thrown down the stairs with mom, it wasn't dead. So if it wasn't alive and it wasn't dead, what was it?

    And they probably would have given it a birth & death date of that day, because that's the day it was removed. If it was removed.

    But dates constitute human life?
    "I've cautiously embraced jeggings"
    Emma Peel aka Pacific Breeze aka Wilde1 aka gogodancer aka maribou

    Yip, yip, yip in your tiny indignation. Bark furiously on, lady dog.

  12. #222
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobelia
    Well, before it got thrown down the stairs with mom, it wasn't dead. So if it wasn't alive and it wasn't dead, what was it?

    And they probably would have given it a birth & death date of that day, because that's the day it was removed. If it was removed.

    But dates constitute human life?
    It would have been 'living' and then 'not living'..but still would not have been considered to be a 'human life'...as in having 'lived and then died'..because it was never born. It would have been very close, but it would not have been a 'human life'. It gets even more interesting if you consider if the woman had been intentionally pushed down the stairs instead of having accidentally falling. Was one life taken..or two? IMO it would only have been one life taken and the perpetrator could not face charges for killing a 'second life'
    I do not understand how people in this country can face charges of killing someone over the loss of a fetus. It would be assault against the woman, not a 'killing' of the fetus IMO. Again not a popular idea but one I believe in. And not a fun position or belief to have and hold because I know how it can be considered as 'cold-hearted'. It does seem almost brutal in a way for some reason but I believe it and stand by it(the intentional 'killing of a fetus is what I am talking about here)..that no matter how stark and cold it may seem, that a 'human life' would not have been taken and the person could only face charges for harm to the woman, not to her 'unborn' fetus.
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  13. #223
    Elite Member calendargurl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    Quote Originally Posted by equallydivided

    See above, freak.

    PERSONAL ATTACK!!! No need to call me a freak....calm down and go buy another pair of "country" pants that button around your rib cage.

  14. #224
    Elite Member burnt_toast's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    Yay, the bus to crazyville came back for me!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyPool
    I think of it as a way to protect women and the babies. If not then your fellow human being will continue expanding ways to profit $$$ off of your predicament (PLANNED PARENTHOOD and the like). Do you fully understand what you are giving into when you have an abortion? First comes the tragedy you are letting that doctor do to your body and then they take that precious life you just killed and sell it off to laboratories and other "private research facilities". .
    This is insulting at best. Do you really believe that women, fully grown women, with minds and wills of their own must be protected by legislation because they are being victimized by the dr's they schedule the abortion with? It's a medical procedure, of course there will be profit involved...although I suppose if we have it your way coathangers are free. How about the victimization that women will undergo if they can't have an abortion legally and are left to contact Guido at the back of the butcher shop? How much do you think they will pay then? I don't fully understand what you are giving into when having an abortion, I've never had one. But I have faith that an adult woman can weigh her actions and make a proper decision about her own medical treatment and reproduction ... I think women have earned that.

    As for women's rights you are talking to a former petty officer who was one of 3 women who worked as an aviation mechanic in my squadron so take your feminism and stick it in your cheap tassle shoes..
    I don't care if I'm talking to Eleanor fucking Roosevelt - you want to protect women by taking away their ability to make their own decisions! ... I'm not sure how your position as a mechanic has any bearing on the subject.

    And since you're against abortion you are a hypocrite for promoting that sin onto your fellow human beings as a choice.
    Promotion abortion and ensuring that women are allowed to govern their own lives are two very different things. You'd have them be a slave to the law and I would rather they were a slave to their own conscience.

    We will never rid ourselves of abortions, they have always happened and they always will (much like prostitution). I'd hazard a guess that Soj, Grimm and Dakotas would love to see no more abortions - but if they are going to happen (and they are) then lets ensure the women getting them are getting good medical care, that they have somewhere safe and clean to go. If abortions are criminalized then we are left with blackmarket medical procedures ... coathangers, rusty knives ...

  15. #225
    Gold Member equallydivided's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supreme court to mull partial-birth abortion bans

    Save the fuckin' spotted owl, save a tree, save the eagle, save all this OTHER shit, but don't save a baby? Some people are really fucked up.

    Quote Originally Posted by calendargurl
    PERSONAL ATTACK!!! No need to call me a freak....calm down and go buy another pair of "country" pants that button around your rib cage.
    NICE, but at least I can FIND my rib cage...

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