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Thread: Socialized medicine: check your premises

  1. #16
    Bronze Member kchal's Avatar
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    I think it is pretty sad that any CITIZEN of the US feels that EVERY citizen is not entitled to healthcare - sounds like more worried about what it would cost YOU but don't you realize that you are paying for it already w/the health insurance you are paying now and the taxes that help support medicare/medicaid... I personally dont think that healthcare should be a for-profit industry - from the insurance companies to the hospitals - unless you want to pay a private practice for 'special' care - Just like public school is a right of citizens and those who want to can pay for private school.
    It really isnt the poorest who are cut off and harmed by the current system, it is the lower middle class - the ones barely making it and working full time to support family that end up on losing side because they aren't poor enough by govt standards to get free care, yet can't afford to pay for insurance or it is not offered by their employer at all - so when something goes wrong, they are totally screwed... and w/the recent bankruptcy law revisions they now don't even have that as an option.
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  2. #17
    Silver Member gardenofeve's Avatar
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    sounds like more worried about what it would cost YOU but don't you realize that you are paying for it already w/the health insurance you are paying now
    It's interesting you said that. One time a friend and I figured out that the rate she pays in taxes and insurance money, would be a little more than what I would pay if I were in her tax bracket. However now that we're in a higher tax bracket, our percentage goes up. But I absolutely have no problems paying taxes going towards healthcare if I know that my elderly mother who is on a pension, gets the same quality care I do. Now get me started on other gov't waste, and I'll rant without breathing for a couple of hours, but I think most Canadians, even a lot of conservative ones (excluding Harper and his band of idiots) would like to preserve and improve the healthcare.

  3. #18
    A*O
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    The article is so badly written it's incomprehensible.
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  4. #19
    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    Sorry, but YES someone is entitled to the same care as everyone else because they are "fucking breathing" as you put it. Why would they not?? Did someone say you were better than anyone else and deserved healthcare because you have money??
    You know, when people have the reaction that you did to my statements, it's usually because they are picturing decent, hardworking folks who just don't make a lot of money being denied access to healthcare, food, or whatever else. Nobody ever envisions lazy, slacker types who will do anything they can to keep from working. I don't guess anybody is thinking about pedophiles, wife beaters, or folks who live very irresponsibly at the expense of everyone else. I know that it's not really pc to have the temerity to suggest that everyone pull their weight, but tough. There were several ways to interpret what I said and it's interesting that you zoomed in on low income working people or older people like your mom as being victims of my ideology. I guess everyone here has been blessed to have not crossed paths with some of the losers I've encountered. Yes, I do think it is ridiculous to think you can drop out of school and start having kids that you cannot afford (which pretty much guarantees that you won't be able to get an education or viable job skills) or you want to hustle because working legit just isn't cool enough for you, yet expect that you will enjoy the same quality of life as people who make responsible decisions and take ownership of their own lives. I never said anything about working people (yes, even poor ones) not having access to some sort of system that would provide quality health care. That said, there are a lot of different people out there, good and bad ones, and no, I do not think that EVERYONE deserves the same quality of life. Some people are just fucking losers who drain a lot out of society and contribute nothing, and I have a problem with being expected to work my ass off to take care of them. God forbid I think I should actually be able to keep most of the money I've worked so hard to earn.

    By the way, just what makes you think I have so much money anyway? Besides, in my ideal world, socail welfare of all kinds would be exclusively available to those who work and contribute to the system (disabled, kids, and elderly excluded). I really dislike the current failure of a system which only gives assistance to people who don't work or who have kids (which rewards people for having kids they cannot care for and totally screws single people).
    Last edited by crumpet; July 27th, 2007 at 09:09 AM.

  5. #20
    Bronze Member kchal's Avatar
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    There is a HUGE difference between saying everyone deserves medical treatment vs. everyone 'deserves' the same quality of life - which is a subjective issue - my idea of quality of life may differ greatly than yours... .and I dont think anyone is arguing that we should all have million dollar mansions - but EVERYONE, including 'losers' should have access to medical care.
    But basing available healthcare on whether or not someone is a 'loser' is not a viable option. So if you dont like someone, think they are useless, then no care for them. And who gets to determine what constitutes 'loser'? How would you exactly WORD that medical plan? Do you work, no, are you disabled, no, LOSER - go home and suffer???
    Money can't buy happiness but it can certainly rent it for a couple of hours.

  6. #21
    Elite Member Ravenna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crumpet View Post
    I do not think that EVERYONE deserves the same quality of life.
    Well, neither do I, if you are talking about material goods or things that just make life more enjoyable. We're not talking about making sure everyone can afford cable t.v. We're talking about healthcare, which is not a luxury, it is a basic need, and a humanitarian issue. People get sick through no fault of their own. I don't care if you've never contributed a dime in tax money to the public purse, if you're stricken with some disease or chonic condition, or if you are in an accident, or some other health misfortune befalls you, you don't deserve to suffer the added burden of a financial catastrophe, or heaven forbid you can't even get treatment at all because you don't have the money or insurance. Health issues are enough of a burden all of their own. And sometimes people get sick because of environment issues such as pollution that we ALL contribute to. And please don't talk about pedophiles. Truly bad people make up only a small portion of society. I don't want to get into making decisions about who does and doesn't deserve health care. It should simply be available to all. Some people can't even get health insurance in the U.S. because of pre-existing conditions. That is not acceptable. I'm not much of a communist, but I do absolutely believe in universal health care.

  7. #22
    Elite Member Mariesoleil's Avatar
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    Nobody ever envisions lazy, slacker types who will do anything they can to keep from working. I don't guess anybody is thinking about pedophiles, wife beaters, or folks who live very irresponsibly at the expense of everyone else.


    Do you have some type of system in mind that could say who these people are? Because I'm sure that if you do the police would be quite interested in it and you could make a heck of alot of money.

    There were several ways to interpret what I said and it's interesting that you zoomed in on low income working people or older people like your mom as being victims of my ideology.


    Actually my mom is dead and even if she wasn't she wouldn't be that old today. She'd be 57 now. She burnt in the fire of our appartment and all I can say is thank god we don't pay for healthcare because yes my mom was poor and I was 21 at the time so I don't think we would have had the money for healthcare even if I did work, I was working minimum wage. I don't even want to think about the amount it would have cost us. The air ambulance to get her to Montreal in a hospital that gives treatment to severly burnt people, the 4 days she spent in the hospital before dying and all the special treatments they gave her to try to save her. I'd probably still be paying and would have to for quite some time yet. Yes I zeroed in on low income people. Why? Do I really need to explain?? First of all the losers who don't work as you say get wellfare so I would assume their healthcare is paid for as well in the US isn't that right?

    By the way, just what makes you think I have so much money anyway?

    I didn't say I though you had so much money, but obviously you have enough to afford healthcare because if you didn't you wouldn't say the things you're saying now would you?
    "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the most accessible and wisest of counsellors, and the most patient of teachers."

  8. #23
    Elite Member JamieElizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gardenofeve View Post
    It's interesting you said that. One time a friend and I figured out that the rate she pays in taxes and insurance money, would be a little more than what I would pay if I were in her tax bracket. However now that we're in a higher tax bracket, our percentage goes up. But I absolutely have no problems paying taxes going towards healthcare if I know that my elderly mother who is on a pension, gets the same quality care I do. Now get me started on other gov't waste, and I'll rant without breathing for a couple of hours, but I think most Canadians, even a lot of conservative ones (excluding Harper and his band of idiots) would like to preserve and improve the healthcare.
    Sounds like Canadians know how to add value back into soceity. Problem with US is that until we straighten out our agriculture and how corporate American functions within our environment, we won't ever get to that place

  9. #24
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    well you have to stop letting the lobbyists and special interests highjack your gov.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  10. #25
    Elite Member Mr. Authority's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    well you have to stop letting the lobbyists and special interests highjack your gov.
    They can't cuz that's where most of the capitialistic neo-con base is from in the government.

    Honestly it really pisses me of to see people deny the problems with health insurance and bitch about another country's healthcare system. I bet if you asked a Canadian or French person if they'd switched for a health insurance policy over their healthcare then they'd laugh in your face for asking such a dumbass question.

    the debate over universal healthcare being too "socialist" for the US is fucking dumb. There are people being denied the care they need to live because their insurance wouldn't "cover it" and yet we still have a problem with what kind of government ideal fits universal healthcare? Who the fuck cares if healthcare does'nt fit in with "Corporate America". Corporate America has been fucking the US for years with outsourcing and layoffs and yet I should be concerned about what they and their republican cohorts think? Fuck that, we as a nation should'nt let them get in the way of getting the proper care that we all need (and yeah I'm including the "losers" in we). If you don't wnat healthcare then keep paying your HMOs and shut the fuck up!

  11. #26
    Elite Member JamieElizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    well you have to stop letting the lobbyists and special interests highjack your gov.
    Do you think that the corporate control over the agriculture is a bad thing? Pretty sure Barak Obama is very much for that.
    I don't know. Maybe I've always wished that the US would have integrated the agri'culture' more like France or even Britian.

  12. #27
    A*O
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamieElizabeth View Post
    Do you think that the corporate control over the agriculture is a bad thing? Pretty sure Barak Obama is very much for that.
    I don't know. Maybe I've always wished that the US would have integrated the agri'culture' more like France or even Britian.
    What the hell does this mean? This whole thread is gibberish. My head hurts.
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  13. #28
    Elite Member crackho's Avatar
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    I have the supposed best coverage I can buy with Blue Cross/Blue Shield through my employer (federal gov), and STILL have to fight just about every claim that I file because it gets rejected. It sucks. Will someone from Canada please adopt me? I am clean and don't eat too much and can make money in lots of different ways.

  14. #29
    Elite Member JamieElizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    What the hell does this mean? This whole thread is gibberish. My head hurts.
    Sorry, I'll STFU.



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