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Thread: Should the Supreme Court allow a Christian cross in a war monument?

  1. #31
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Turkey and Hong Kong as well- neither one would be the west, or considered a Christian nation. No one there seems at all disturbed by those memorials.
    uh, turkey had a sizeable christian population (hagia sophia anybody?) thanks to Constantinople at one point and Hong Kong had a serious christian influence from the British who ran it for 100 years

    the damned cross is not a "universal" symbol for war dead, only christian arrogance presumes it is.
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    uh, turkey had a sizeable christian population (hagia sophia anybody?) thanks to Constantinople at one point and Hong Kong had a serious christian influence from the British who ran it for 100 years
    Yes, I do know that. But the cross in Turkey was erected long after the county was primarily muslim. It's also is a WW1 memorial.

    And if we are basing it on the population and influence we must consider that the majority of the US dead from WW1 were primarily Christian. That's the truth. Yes, there were other faiths, but in much smaller numbers. That was the population at the time.

    I just feel it's not hurting anyone, and I think I should just be left alone. And I say that as a confirmed atheist.
    Last edited by witchcurlgirl; October 8th, 2009 at 06:03 PM.
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  3. #33
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    uh, turkey had a sizeable christian population (hagia sophia anybody?) thanks to Constantinople at one point and Hong Kong had a serious christian influence from the British who ran it for 100 years

    the damned cross is not a "universal" symbol for war dead, only christian arrogance presumes it is.
    So it's not a highly recognizable symbol throughout the world??? I've just Googled war cemetery pictures around the world, including ones like this one in Egypt. Obviously, a predominantly Islamic country like Egypt understands the symbol of the cross in a war cemetery. It's a symbol of sacrifice and it has become a powerful symbol around the world. I'm not seeing Egyptian outrage over it either - they understand it's a way to honor soldiers who have fallen in battle.



    Who are we to tell ANYBODY what to put up, or take down, on their own private land???


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseguy View Post
    What about their family members? They are the ones who are upset. It's on private land. They are using an almost universal symbol of respecting their war dead. It's their land - let them have their cross.
    Basically I agree and this whole thing is being blown up into yet another huge PC drama. There's always someone out there looking for something to be offended about.
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    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    Yes, I do know that. But the cross in Turkey was erected long after the county was primarily muslim. It's also is a WW1 memorial.

    And if we are basing it on the population and influence we must consider that the majority of the US dead from WW1 were primarily Christian. That's the truth. Yes, there were other faiths, but in much smaller numbers. That was the population at the time.

    I just feel it's not hurting anyone, and I think I should just be left alone. And I say that as a confirmed atheist.
    Its funny, but as a confirmed Christian I think it should come down I understand some of your points - and I think its good that we've come farther in society to where its not an accepted practice nowadays to put a cross up in memorials/cemeteries which houses people of all faiths. I also wouldn't want to disturb a cemetery or a memorial in which the cross has stood for a long time in concrete, or where it would cause a considerable disturbance to take it down. But in this case, its a rickety old cross that can easily be taken down. So, as a Christian, if I knew that other people had a problem with it, down it goes. Its just a symbol anyway. Like I said before, I don't need a symbol to sustain my faith, and I don't want to hurt anyone else by needing "religious comfort." If its a war memorial, put up the American flag. The cross is unnecessary and its not worth the fight. I don't know why we Christians have to impose this on everyone - why can't we just practice in peace and leave others to do the same? This is one of the reasons why people have problems with Christians, we make a fuss over things that don't matter. I have my cross at home that gives me comfort, I don't need to see it at a war memorial to respect the dead. I respect them already.

    And like I said before, if this was about giving people "religious comfort" then they should not have protested when the Buddhists wanted their own symbol. Its really irritating that they denied someone else the expression of their own religious faith while saying they are being persecuted. I don't like this double standard, regardless of what people are majority/minority.
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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseguy View Post
    So it's not a highly recognizable symbol throughout the world??? I've just Googled war cemetery pictures around the world, including ones like this one in Egypt. Obviously, a predominantly Islamic country like Egypt understands the symbol of the cross in a war cemetery. It's a symbol of sacrifice and it has become a powerful symbol around the world. I'm not seeing Egyptian outrage over it either - they understand it's a way to honor soldiers who have fallen in battle.



    Who are we to tell ANYBODY what to put up, or take down, on their own private land???
    A commonwealth grave.. ie: WESTERN, duhhhhh

    Interesting to note, there's only ONE of these things in America, actually called the Cross of Sacrifice.. guess where? A CANADIAN WAR GRAVE, ie: commonwealth again, ie: western
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    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    Its funny, but as a confirmed Christian I think it should come down I understand some of your points - and I think its good that we've come farther in society to where its not an accepted practice nowadays to put a cross up in memorials/cemeteries which houses people of all faiths. I also wouldn't want to disturb a cemetery or a memorial in which the cross has stood for a long time in concrete, or where it would cause a considerable disturbance to take it down. But in this case, its a rickety old cross that can easily be taken down. So, as a Christian, if I knew that other people had a problem with it, down it goes. Its just a symbol anyway. Like I said before, I don't need a symbol to sustain my faith, and I don't want to hurt anyone else by needing "religious comfort." If its a war memorial, put up the American flag. The cross is unnecessary and its not worth the fight. I don't know why we Christians have to impose this on everyone - why can't we just practice in peace and leave others to do the same? This is one of the reasons why people have problems with Christians, we make a fuss over things that don't matter. I have my cross at home that gives me comfort, I don't need to see it at a war memorial to respect the dead. I respect them already.
    So Christians are forcing/imposing their faith on others??? Aren't you bending over backwards the other way?? This is a war cemetery!!! Are we now supposed to start taking down crosses in front of war cemeteries the world over that have been there for hundreds or thousands of years? People who are getting offended over this and forcing the removal of this cross are the ones imposing their views on others.


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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    unless everybody in the grave is a confirmed christian, then yes.

    chances are, THOUSANDS of years ago (snicker) the people in such graves were pretty local so most probably all christian
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    Grimm, we all know you are a rabid atheist so why does this stuff get you so bent out of shape? It shouldn't even appear as a tiny dot on your Radar Of Indignation.
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    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    A commonwealth grave.. ie: WESTERN, duhhhhh
    Grimm - I'm not stupid. There's no need to get offensive because I have a different point of view to you. I get it - you hate Christians.

    My point was that it's a war cemetery in an Islamic country and they have no problem with it.


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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Who said I was an athiest?

    I just dislike organized religion as a whole, yet my Canadian sense of fair play usually kicks in when I see one group lording over another at the expense of logic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseguy View Post
    Grimm - I'm not stupid. I get it - you hate Christians.
    Wow, I've never seen someone contradict themselves that fast in one sentence.

    My point was that it's a war cemetery in an Islamic country and they have no problem with it.
    Uh yeah, cuz it's all dead western soldiers in it. Ain't any of their boys!
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    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    I was going to point out that those graves about were Commonwealth graves, but Grimm got there before I did. So yes, that is a western cemetery in an Islamic country (which also has a big coptic population there) so its not that surprising.

    And what a second, you can't be serious - really?

    I'm imposing my view on others by saying that its silly to HAVE to have the cross at a war memorial or cemetery? I don't have a problem with grave markers being crosses if the people were Christians, but I take offense at entire war memorials/cemeteries being dedicated to the Christian cross. You can't have this both ways. You said yourself that this is a symbol of religious "comfort" and then backpedaled and said its a "universal symbol to honor the war dead." Which one is it? Its NOT a symbol of religious comfort to everyone, though, just to you. So take that cross home and stick it in your own yard. I'm not about to impose my views on someone else, sorry, its not something to get bent out of shape about. Its not bending over backwards to accommodate other people, its about respecting others and knowing that I don't have the monopoly on needing religious comfort.

    You keep avoiding the question - why did they deny the Buddhists the chance to put up their own symbol of the Buddhists believe that its their way to honor their fallen dead soldiers? Why wasn't that wrong?
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    *steeples fingers and waits*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Who said I was an athiest?
    Ohhhhhhhhhhh so you DO believe in God or in your case the Sky Fairy?
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