The right not to know - One Woman's Ordeal with Texas' New Sonogram Law

**witchcurlgirl** · March 21st, 2012, 06:42 PM

i hate these people. i wish their mothers had chosen abortion.

**twitchy2.0** · March 21st, 2012, 06:58 PM

Texasheartland, there is no "I'm sorry, but". The moment you add "but" to that sentence you just showed that you aren't really sorry.

What they went through was hell. They wanted that child. They were excited to be parents again and then they find out that something is very very wrong. They made a difficult decision not to give their child a short, brutal lifetime of suffering IF that fetus even made it to full term. Do you not see that they loved? Do you not see that they mourn?

All these stupid laws are doing is inflicting more pain and suffering on people who are already in their darkest hour. It's sadistic and unnecessary. It's evil to deliberately set out to hurt parents trying to do what they feel is right just because you disagree with their decision.

**travelbug** · March 21st, 2012, 07:18 PM

Texas person, I am quite sure that in the case of necessary later term abortions the fetus is injected with morphine prior to the procedure. So the fetus does not feel pain. Sorry if it bothers you, BUT I think the parents did the most humane thing they could do.

**Novice** · March 21st, 2012, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by texas heartland

I am sorry for this woman and her husband but am mostly sorry for the little boy they didnt give a chance to live. They want to cry and moan about what they went through but that little boy was killed in a merciless way with no sedation and no way to fight back. He felt PAIN, real honest to God PAIN while they ripped his body apart one piece at a time. Sorry but my thought is, you dont do this no matter what. That little tiny beautiful boy had a right to be born and FIGHT for his LIFE. Then if he died at least they would know they had done what they could for him.

I'm sorry that your mother was pro-life & not pro-choice because your lack of brain function is an unfortunate travesty that all mothers should be saved from.

A bad situation for these parents was made much much worse by old white men who should have no input in medical procerdures.

**stef** · March 22nd, 2012, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by texas heartland

I am sorry for this woman and her husband but am mostly sorry for the little boy they didnt give a chance to live. They want to cry and moan about what they went through but that little boy was killed in a merciless way with no sedation and no way to fight back. He felt PAIN, real honest to God PAIN while they ripped his body apart one piece at a time. Sorry but my thought is, you dont do this no matter what. That little tiny beautiful boy had a right to be born and FIGHT for his LIFE. Then if he died at least they would know they had done what they could for him.

Originally Posted by travelbug

Texas person, I am quite sure that in the case of necessary later term abortions the fetus is injected with morphine prior to the procedure. So the fetus does not feel pain. Sorry if it bothers you, BUT I think the parents did the most humane thing they could do.

it makes me sick that when you do a google search on "late term abortion", the majority of the sites that come up are shit-stirring religious and pro-life sites. jesus. i can't believe some of the shit i just read on these sites.

(even though the woman in the article didn't have a late term abortion, i think late term is after 6 months, and she said she was only halfway through the pregnancy) this is what i found:

For patients that are 18 weeks pregnant or more by LMP, the physician will also administer a medication called digoxin on the first day of the abortion procedure. Digoxin is administered directly into the fetus to induce fetal demise (death). This is administered at 18 or more weeks in a pregnancy in order to prevent a live birth and also to ensure that the fetus is unable to feel any part of the abortion procedure. Medical evidence is unclear as to the exact time a fetus is developed enough to feel pain, but some studies point to a time around 20 – 22 weeks. We feel that administering digoxin is the most humane thing we can do in order to ensure that the fetus does not experience pain during the procedure.

Abortion Care

and there you have it.

**Gilmourgirl** · March 22nd, 2012, 07:24 AM

Following the American politics a little bit I'm glad as a woman to not live in the US. Republican far right hates women as much as gays and atheists. Old white men want to bring the Biblical times back. You are heading into Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale" future. Scary.

**Geest** · March 22nd, 2012, 07:33 AM

I'm also glad I don't live in the US. That's one of the least free countries of the world in reality.

The only positive point in the story is that they had at least 3 sonograms, analyzed by three different people who all came to the same conclusion. I simply don't believe sonograms anymore. They are great toys and can show problems like obvious deformity of the bone structure, maybe the heart as well but I still don't trust them a 100%.

**Mel1973** · March 22nd, 2012, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by texas heartland

I am sorry for this woman and her husband but am mostly sorry for the little boy they didnt give a chance to live. They want to cry and moan about what they went through but that little boy was killed in a merciless way with no sedation and no way to fight back. He felt PAIN, real honest to God PAIN while they ripped his body apart one piece at a time. Sorry but my thought is, you dont do this no matter what. That little tiny beautiful boy had a right to be born and FIGHT for his LIFE. Then if he died at least they would know they had done what they could for him.

You are sick and you need some help. Seek a little education before you come on some random website spouting shit that you clearly know nothing about. When I read your post, I felt real honest to God PAIN! now, fuck right off!

Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl

i hate these people. i wish their mothers had chosen abortion.

texas heartland should've been a blowjob... but that would make her mother a cannibal. hmm... *ponders*

**monk** · March 22nd, 2012, 09:12 AM

The article is one of those emotional sob fests that is designed to illicit exactly that kind of reaction out of the reader. Hers was a worse case scenario. The doctor has to do her job and describe the baby. It's fair to have that moment of consideration and actual description of the fetus if it is healthy. I feel for the woman and how brutal it seemed to her. But I don't think that's a typical example. She could have certainly just put her fingers in her ears and let the doctor get on with doing what she was legally required to do. There's way too much emotional drama in the abortion discussion. Texasheartland's post is an example of it done the other way. The fetus felt pain suffered and died. The alternative is a life of palliative care and a lifetime of pain. How stupid is it to suggest that's the better alternative.

**witchcurlgirl** · March 22nd, 2012, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by monk

She could have certainly just put her fingers in her ears and let the doctor get on with doing what she was legally required to do.

She shouldn't have to put her fingers in her ears. She's an adult, with the right to make her decision without this type of ridiculous interference from the state.

**monk** · March 22nd, 2012, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl

She shouldn't have to put her fingers in her ears. She's an adult, with the right to make her decision without this type of ridiculous interference from the state.

I agree. But if she was in the situation she could have simply put her fingers in her ears if she didn't want to hear. She shouldn't have to do that at all and the law needs to be changed. But it seems this article was written to be gut wrenching and emotionally manipulative and worked just fine. It just feels manipulative to me. Doesn't make me think "Oh the poor thing, the law needs to be changed." Makes me think "how many times are you going to go on about how horrifying and devastating this is for you. I get it."

**McJag** · March 22nd, 2012, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Gilmourgirl

Following the American politics a little bit I'm glad as a woman to not live in the US. Republican far right hates women as much as gays and atheists. Old white men want to bring the Biblical times back. You are heading into Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale" future. Scary.

Originally Posted by Geest

I'm also glad I don't live in the US. That's one of the least free countries of the world in reality.

I can see why you feel this way. Still, I have confidence there are enough centered people in the US to fianally get sick of this and speak up loudly. You have only to look at the US posters on here to see that Old Men viewpoint is not popular in the slightest.

**twitchy2.0** · March 22nd, 2012, 09:31 AM

And then look at posters elsewhere to realize there's still a lot of dinosaurs out there who think that women are incapable of making mature decisions for themselves and need to be controlled.

Originally Posted by monk

I get it."

I'm not sure about that. You described it as emotionally manipulative. You want to see emotionally manipulative, look at the sonogram law, look at the requirement for the fetal description. THAT'S emotionally manipulative. Maybe she wrote about the experience as "gut wrenching" because it was. This was her experience. Her heelings are not invalid simply because you cannot relate to them.

**monk** · March 22nd, 2012, 09:54 AM

I'm pro choice all the way however I can respect the feelings of those who feel abortion is an ethical decision that should be made carefully as an informed decision. To me this means a second opinion on the sonogram and a clear description to the mother of what the condition of the fetus would be. In this woman's case she is someone who fell between the cracks. But say the mother is open to the idea of raising a disabled child. Say the child would be born missing an arm or with that lobster claw deformity. If the mother found out after having an abortion that the child wouldn't be in pain and could live a happy and productive life she might feel angry and devastated that she wasn't duly informed about the condition of the fetus. This article reads like a "charmed life" kinda gal having to deal with the reality of aborting an unhealthy fetus. Even her comments about her husband having to sit in a waiting room under a domestic violence poster had me rolling my eyes. As if every second of this was traumatizing. If the woman was informed in the first place she wouldn't have chosen a Catholic hospital. In a regular hospital she could have scheduled the abortion after the first sonogram. It's only that she had to go elsewhere that it became an ordeal. Anyway I think the law is designed to protect and inform the mother. I don't see what's so bad about it. But I haven't read into it much, I admit.

**MontanaMama** · March 22nd, 2012, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by monk

The article is one of those emotional sob fests that is designed to illicit exactly that kind of reaction out of the reader. Hers was a worse case scenario. The doctor has to do her job and describe the baby. It's fair to have that moment of consideration and actual description of the fetus if it is healthy. I feel for the woman and how brutal it seemed to her. But I don't think that's a typical example. She could have certainly just put her fingers in her ears and let the doctor get on with doing what she was legally required to do. There's way too much emotional drama in the abortion discussion. Texasheartland's post is an example of it done the other way. The fetus felt pain suffered and died. The alternative is a life of palliative care and a lifetime of pain. How stupid is it to suggest that's the better alternative.

No it is NOT fair. How dare you presume that a woman cannot given careful consideration before ever going to see the doctor without the State of Texas (or any of these other states) mandating it. And if she doesn't? Who cares, whose actual biological, financial, emotional, educational business is it except for the woman's and increasingly hopefully the father's? It is her body, her life and her decision. If she decides to have a baby, then her life becomes one that must forever consider the best welfare of another human being. Until the time that the fetus has the biological capabilities to exist not as a parasite, it is not a person. It does not have rights and some simple research indicates that this particular story did not involve pain to the fetus. How dare a political entity or you decree or support what conversations a doctor must have with his or patients.

ETA: No Monk, you are not pro-choice. In the first trimester a description of the "condition" of the fetus cannot be done without an internal ultrasound. Consider the fact that what you are is a proponent of state sanctioned and state mandated rape.