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Thread: Religious retards once again trying to shove creationist shit into Texas schools

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    I know, right. That will never happen though, because apparently only the christian version is the REAL one.

    That's a big problem for creationist "theory"... it completely ignores the thousands of other religions and THEIR creation myths.

    Now arrogant.
    I agree...but do you know to what extent of detail they want to cover creationism? I don't necessarily think a quick acknowledgement that "millions of people the world over ascribe the creation of the universe to a higher being" would be ignoring the thousands of other religions and their creation beliefs.

    Edit: But I don't think they should talk about it religion at all.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    I believe we are all created to seek a higher being
    ... except for the people who feel no impulse to do so.

    I believe it's irrational to believe that something can come from absolute nothing.
    Who says it was nothing? Why does it have to be nothing? Is a lack of existence still tangible? 0, as a concept, is still something. It is a representation of nothingness yet still exists on its own. Perhaps we need to define less than nothing in spatial terms.


    I also think that it's arrogant and stupid to believe that we can find all the answers if we only run enough tests.
    ... but we've learned so much so far! Compare what we know NOW, compared to the breadth of knowledge available to Jesus when he was alive. In 2000 years we have accomplished what would be considered god-like magic to the people at that time. We continue to learn more every day. Given how vast the universe is, there is always going to be something we have not yet learned. We never WILL know it all.

    I'm a big proponent of science but I don't think our brains are big enough to figure everything out.
    Learning is a continuous process.

    How exactly do you confirm a deity?
    My point exactly, it's impossible. Historical records can place some guy named Jesus at a time and place but they can't confirm his godhood. Mentioning historical records as some kind of proof of divinity is therefore erroneous.

    Jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah because they were expecting a king.
    Branch Davidians didn't accept David Koresh because they were expecting one either. The difference is rather vanishing.

    You know of course that ancient writings (even other than the Bible) were prophecies that included details of a savior's birth, death, and ressurection. Details that Jesus' life matched?
    ... and not told are the stories of the other people who lived, died and so forth that also matched said details. How many prophets did the romans crucify? Crucifixion was not relegated to murdering Jesus.. it was a old world torture technique used for centuries that kill untold tens of thousands.

    Secondly, you can't prove resurrection and neither can ancient writings. They can claim it, but again.. the burden of proof is on the writings and none is offered beyond "believe this, just because."

    So do you think Jesus was just a crazy guy running around claiming to be God?

    How impossible does that sound, honestly. We have enough charlatans, false prophets, nutjobs who live in compounds and people who kill themselves when comets come by.

    Did he have a death wish?
    Who knows? None of us were around 2000 years ago to ask him. Anything written about him was done 300 years after the fact except for some of the dead sea scrolls which the Israelis won't let anybody see.

    Because he knew he was going to die and that was his destiny.
    Again, that's faith. Basing a belief on something unprovable and using 'ancient writings' that again, prove nothing, to form a viewpoint which is rather slanted.

    Do you think if he was just a regular guy he would've cut it out with the I am the Savior stuff once he realized that it was unpopular and would lead to torture and death?
    Has that stopped any other megamaniacal man with delusions of grandeur? What about suicide bombers. The prospect of a horrible death doesn't deter them any, in fact they welcome in. In ancient Japan, death by combat was as ritualized as any religion, and almost sought. People would write death poems to be judged artistically after their passing as a testament to their life.

    Some people seek martyrdom.

    I think there is a lot of imagination about the afterlife but the truth is we don't really know what it is like

    Not until we kick the bucket anyway.

    - but for those of us that believe in God we believe that the afterlife will unite us with God, while those that choose not to believe will not be with God. I don't know if that means "hell" in the traditional sense or just that you cease to "be" or what.
    yes, a belief based on a book written 300 years by man after the death of its central prophet, and rewritten a hundred times again by a hundred more men, all injecting their bias, political beliefs and lord knows what else into it.

    Yep, since we believe we are created in God's image and the heavens and earth declare His glory, meaning we look at the miracles of life and the universe and we are very impressed with the complexity
    God is a monkey, and at the time of HIS creation in our minds the entire knowledge of the universe we had could be gathered in a thimble. At the time, Zeus held sway in Greece, Jupiter in Rome, animist religions in asia, and Gaia in north america. Interesting to note that despite all THEIR ancient writings, almost all of them have fallen. Fervently believed in their time, later cast down as pagan by newer religions of which Judaism, Christianity and Islam are.


    Yes, it is faith. Do you think God wanted a bunch of little robots with "love God" chips in them? That's no fun.
    Interesting, considering that if you don't psychically submit to the monkeygod and declare your belief in his unproven existence, you are condemned to an existence after this one defined by its cruelty.

    Free will seems to be a precious commodity in a universe ordered by such a capricious being.

    Given that god is all powerful, it seems to me to be mildly amusing that he would spend his time desperately seeking, and even NEEDING, the veneration of one of his creations and stamping his foot for all time like a spoiled child if it was refused.

    And no one can prove there isn't a God either.
    The burden of proof rests on those who proclaim "Believe or else!".


    Not blind faith.
    Faith without evidence or proof is blind.

    Like I said I can't think of any examples in real life where something comes from nothing - even "accidents" really had a chain of events that led up to them, and if one thing in that chain was different, the accident would not have happened. I see so many miraculous things on Earth and the Universe that it actually makes more sense for me to believe that someone or something was the catalyst and the overseer.
    That's fine, but others aren't bound by such limitations. The possibility exists, but without proof, simply believing in it such a thing flies in the face of rational thought. It's like believing elves made this computer out of fairydust based on some kind of whim.
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    You know there are books out there that address all of your questions? Books written by atheists who were looking to disprove Christian beliefs that spent a lot of time researching? I believe what I do because it makes more sense for me than not believing. I don't have exactly the same questions as you but I do have my own. I can't give you the answers to all your questions. You have some really good points. There are books and stuff that address them better than I ever could.

    This looks like it might answer some of your concerns:

    Amazon.com: Does God Exist: The Craig-Flew Debate: William Lane Craig, Stan W. Wallace, Antony Flew: Books

    I am having trouble understanding your motivation. Do you think that if there was enough "evidence" to satisfy your logical mind that you would believe in God? I've been on this board since late 2005 and you keep questioning Christians. Are you trying to convince people NOT to believe in God? Are you trying to justify your lack of belief? Is it just that the debate is fun for you?

    I'm not trying to convince you to believe, BTW. Just trying to explain why I do. Faith is a complicated thing and is based a lot on life experience so I don't know if anyone can convince anyone else to believe in God.

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    Elite Member Mel1973's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nana55 View Post
    If you want creationism taught as an actual idea(scoff, scoff) go to a church school. It is a myth that comes from a big fairytale written by men who had no other way to explain science to people thousands of years ago. No other civilized country even would think of teaching this crap. Sorry, but it is crap. Ban me if you want.
    Nice. These threads alway denigrate into the nonchristians telling the christians how stupid and full of shit they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by hotncmom View Post
    You can believe what you want but Christianity is the largest religion in the world and Jews believe in the same God as Christians. Billions of people over thousands of years have believed in this "crap", including innumerable well-educated, highly intelligent people. Not only that there are thousands of historical records and writings other than the Bible that detail and confirm the events mentioned in the Bible, including Jesus. Unless you have extensively studied and researched these religions, I don't think it's fair to dismiss them outright.

    What I'm trying to say is that the tone of your post is very offensive. We have tons of atheists on here and I don't think anyone has been quite so condescending. You have your reasons for not believing, but many of us who are thinking, intelligent people do believe, and it is not all based on blind faith and following the herd. Many believers have questioned and still choose to believe.

    But I do agree that creationism should not be taught in school. I think I've made that clear.
    Agree with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by hotncmom View Post
    You know there are books out there that address all of your questions? Books written by atheists who were looking to disprove Christian beliefs that spent a lot of time researching? I believe what I do because it makes more sense for me than not believing. I don't have exactly the same questions as you but I do have my own. I can't give you the answers to all your questions. You have some really good points. There are books and stuff that address them better than I ever could.

    This looks like it might answer some of your concerns:

    Amazon.com: Does God Exist: The Craig-Flew Debate: William Lane Craig, Stan W. Wallace, Antony Flew: Books

    I am having trouble understanding your motivation. Do you think that if there was enough "evidence" to satisfy your logical mind that you would believe in God? I've been on this board since late 2005 and you keep questioning Christians. Are you trying to convince people NOT to believe in God? Are you trying to justify your lack of belief? Is it just that the debate is fun for you?

    I'm not trying to convince you to believe, BTW. Just trying to explain why I do. Faith is a complicated thing and is based a lot on life experience so I don't know if anyone can convince anyone else to believe in God.
    Faith is something that is personal to everyone. Nobody should have to explain why they believe in God or why they don't. It's the same as explaining that homosexuality isn't a "choice" or a "lifestyle". Funnily enough, it's okay to belittle and put down people who believe in God.
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  5. #50
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotncmom View Post
    You know there are books out there that address all of your questions? Books written by atheists who were looking to disprove Christian beliefs that spent a lot of time researching?
    Yes, I've read a numebr of those books and nothing is resolved. It's a lot of "historically somewhat accurate but divinity still in question".

    I believe what I do because it makes more sense for me than not believing.

    That's the part I don't get. Without direct evidence and fact to back up a world view how CAN it make more sense?

    Sometimes I get the feeling people believe in it because it's simply EASIER. It doesn't require critical thinking.

    I don't have exactly the same questions as you but I do have my own. I can't give you the answers to all your questions. You have some really good points. There are books and stuff that address them better than I ever could.
    Yeah, but none of them ever answer anything because most of the questions pertain to the unprovable.

    I am having trouble understanding your motivation. Do you think that if there was enough "evidence" to satisfy your logical mind that you would believe in God?
    Generally, that's the idea. If God wants to come down and prove himself to exist it would be a bit hard to refuse.

    I've been on this board since late 2005 and you keep questioning Christians.
    They just happen to be more prevalent, plus they have the guy in the silk dress and silly hat which makes it more fun to poke at. Rest assured I don't put any more stock in the Abrahamic god than Quetzelcotl or some other god that requires lots of clicking and raindances. It's all the same primitivism to me, really. They all seem equally preposterous. All the ritual, dogma.. eating of crackers, imaginary transformation into blood and flesh.. throwing chicken bones to divine the future.. sacrifices... dances.. whirling... getting on a carpet and facing a certain direction..

    Are you trying to convince people NOT to believe in God?
    If I was, would it have some bearing on what I'm saying? LOL

    I'm simply exploring the logic, or lack thereof, concerning what I consider a somewhat befuddling and somewhat dangerous mass delusion that has somehow resulted in some quite spectacular architecture to house some of the worlds most sickening horrors.

    As that stupid movie Contact said, via Carl Sagan..

    "You're an interesting species. An interesting mix. You're capable of such beautiful dreams, and such horrible nightmares. "


    Are you trying to justify your lack of belief?

    That would presuppose I felt the need for a "lack of belief" to be justified in any way. Why is that? I don't feel that believing in an invisible, judgemental whatsit is a rational way to exist, thus I feel no need to justify my lack of belief in something i perceive to be as rather fanciful.

    Is it just that the debate is fun for you?
    Well mom always said I should be a lawyer LOL

    I'm not trying to convince you to believe, BTW. Just trying to explain why I do. Faith is a complicated thing and is based a lot on life experience so I don't know if anyone can convince anyone else to believe in God.
    short of some kind of religious miracle (that can be proven to be such) I doubt it can happen
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  6. #51
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel1973 View Post
    Nice. These threads alway denigrate into the nonchristians telling the christians how stupid and full of shit they are.
    But it IS a myth. Adam and Eve. Genesis. They're stories based on no evidence to explain something nobody was around to witness.

    To pretend, or even hint that such stories or myths are factual, based on no evidence, is kind of dumb.

    Faith is something that is personal to everyone. Nobody should have to explain why they believe in God or why they don't.
    Nobody is holding a gun to anybody else's head.

    It's the same as explaining that homosexuality isn't a "choice" or a "lifestyle".

    *chuckles* Except that there's enough science behind that to back it up.

    Funnily enough, it's okay to belittle and put down people who believe in God.
    Highlighting nonsensicalities that people defend as fact is hardly belittlement. More like pointing out obvious flaws in the logic process.

    Only the worn out taboo of "don't mock religion" results in any hurt feelings because when that shield is ripped away, people have no way to defend against it. That's why the taboo exists in the first place, because religion is not logical. Confront it with logic and the only defense is "thou shalt not mock god".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    I know, right. That will never happen though, because apparently only the christian version is the REAL one.

    That's a big problem for creationist "theory"... it completely ignores the thousands of other religions and THEIR creation myths.

    Now arrogant.
    Reminds me, the ancient Egyptians didn't believe that the world was created in 7 days or any limited time span. Creation was ongoing and always continued into the present.

  8. #53
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    Well clearly that's not taken into creationist account because it's simply ridiculous. Only Jebus creating the world in 7 days makes any sense, even if that guess is an approximation of the deitical grasp of linear time.. which said deity of course invented...
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    I'm editing the 14 year old's paper on evolution and creationism right now. It's pretty good.

    (Thank God for Massachusetts public schools. They are not perfect, but in the scheme of things my kids could be much worse off.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Well clearly that's not taken into creationist account because it's simply ridiculous. Only Jebus creating the world in 7 days makes any sense, even if that guess is an approximation of the deitical grasp of linear time.. which said deity of course invented...
    There's several Christians on here that have clearly stated that we believe that the 7 days stuff should not be interpreted literally.

    I'm just tired of religious people being characterized as stupid sheep who have no basis for their beliefs. That would be Scientologists. It's not like the Bible was written by one person or a group of people got in a room and decided to invent a religion (well, you could say that about some religions, like Mormon, but not the major ones). We are looking at text that was written by different people over thousands of years, that was compiled into the Bible. We are looking at text that has predictions of future events and then thousands of years later people wrote about witnessing events that parallel the predictions.

    And we're not all gay-hating, abortion-clinic-bombing, Palin or Jindal-esque friends of witch doctors and haters of science.

    Another thing about Jesus vs. crazy people who believed they were the Messiah....Jesus never killed anyone. As far as I know, all those crazed religious cult leaders killed people, convinced people to kill themselves, or personally committed suicide. Jesus didn't leave a trail of dead bodies in his path. Not to mention the eyewitness accounts of miracles performed by Jesus. There are quite a few differences between Jesus, and say, Jim Jones or David Karesh.

    You know, I don't like broccoli but I don't go on message boards trying to convince other people to NOT like broccoli. If someone were trying to make a law that we all had to eat broccoli I'd be bitching about it a lot, but I wouldn't tell people they were stupid for liking broccoli. That's kind of how I see these threads.

  11. #56
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotncmom View Post
    There's several Christians on here that have clearly stated that we believe that the 7 days stuff should not be interpreted literally.
    Well no, but it's still believed but explained away as "It's not literal time, It's GODS TIME, which is of course different than normal time!"

    That, of course, isn't based on anything either.. other than the need to make it 'mystical', unknowable and unquantifiable and therefore 'beyond our understanding. That feels like a massive cop out.

    I'm just tired of religious people being characterized as stupid sheep who have no basis for their beliefs.
    Well so far we've established that their beliefs are mostly blind, based off ancient biased writings about a historical character, written 300 years after the death of said character, and said writings attribute all sorts of magical things happening to and because of said character that are unprovable.

    That would be Scientologists.
    I think it's interesting that you immediately dismiss another 'religion' on the basis that the people following it are not of your particular brand, and thus are sheep, whereas (ostensibly) the followers of YOUR particular brand of god magic have somehow clued into THE TRUTH©

    The hilarity of that statement is obvious.

    It's not like the Bible was written by one person or a group of people got in a room and decided to invent a religion (well, you could say that about some religions, like Mormon, but not the major ones).
    ...might want to tell that to the Apostles, and all the scribes that came after, King James, etc..

    We are looking at text that was written by different people over thousands of years, that was compiled into the Bible.
    Yes, we're looking at an old collection of writings, written by people with their own philosophical, political, cultural and intellectual bent and we're supposed to simply accept that it's somehow, despite the vast disparities, inaccuracies and biases.. the direct word of a god.

    We are looking at text that has predictions of future events and then thousands of years later people wrote about witnessing events that parallel the predictions.
    They found correlations in texts written so vaguely that it wouldn't be much of a stretch to find similarities in everyday life.

    And we're not all gay-hating, abortion-clinic-bombing, Palin or Jindal-esque friends of witch doctors and haters of science.
    Nobody said you were.

    Another thing about Jesus vs. crazy people who believed they were the Messiah....Jesus never killed anyone.
    ... that you know of. Again, no basis in fact or reality... just a guess based on the rather loose interpretation of his life. For all we know he offed a childhood friend.

    As far as I know, all those crazed religious cult leaders killed people, convinced people to kill themselves, or personally committed suicide.
    Not all of them. A lot of them were killed by 'the authorities'.

    Jesus didn't leave a trail of dead bodies in his path.
    Again, that we know of.

    Not to mention the eyewitness accounts of miracles performed by Jesus.
    Oh come on. A flashlight would be a miracle to people of that time. "Eye witness' accounts from desert cavemen of what they report to be miracles.

    Yes, let's base someone's claim to divinity on THAT. No holes could be found with that process.

    There are quite a few differences between Jesus, and say, Jim Jones or David Karesh.
    Well Jesus didn't have a compound and Kool-Aid hadn't been invented yet.

    You know, I don't like broccoli but I don't go on message boards trying to convince other people to NOT like broccoli.
    You could. However it would be more like arguing about the existence of broccoli, if broccoli were not a tangible, consumable vegetable and more an idea of a vegetable, invisible, that ancient texts referred to as existing somewhere outside our sphere of understanding.


    If someone were trying to make a law that we all had to eat broccoli I'd be bitching about it a lot, but I wouldn't tell people they were stupid for liking broccoli. That's kind of how I see these threads.
    Except liking or not liking broccoli is dependent on being able to experience broccoli in a tangible way.. and not the IDEA of broccoli.
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  12. #57
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotncmom View Post
    I'm just tired of religious people being characterized as stupid sheep who have no basis for their beliefs. That would be Scientologists. It's not like the Bible was written by one person or a group of people got in a room and decided to invent a religion (well, you could say that about some religions, like Mormon, but not the major ones). We are looking at text that was written by different people over thousands of years, that was compiled into the Bible. We are looking at text that has predictions of future events and then thousands of years later people wrote about witnessing events that parallel the predictions.
    Quote Originally Posted by hotncmom View Post
    You can believe what you want but Christianity is the largest religion in the world and Jews believe in the same God as Christians. Billions of people over thousands of years have believed in this "crap", including innumerable well-educated, highly intelligent people. Not only that there are thousands of historical records and writings other than the Bible that detail and confirm the events mentioned in the Bible, including Jesus. Unless you have extensively studied and researched these religions, I don't think it's fair to dismiss them outright.
    If there's one thing this thread has reminded me of, then it's that there's a lot of Christians ignorant of their church history. Jesus was much more like a Cynic-teacher than either a Christ-savior or a messiah with a program for the reformation of the second-temple Jewish society and religion. Completely forgotten are the vast disparities between Jewish and Christian bibles. Christians love to claim that the Old Testament proves that Jesus is the messiah, yet they forget that the Old Testament is organized to back up that claim. The Jewish Bible, aka Tanak/TNK for Torah, Prophets, Writings, is organized in that particular order. Christians refer to the Ten Commandments and Jews refer to the Ten Sayings, a significant philosophical difference as the "commandments" are written in an impersonal fashion, e.g. "Thou shalt not..." rather than "I have not..."

    And completely forgotten are the differences between what early Christian beliefs were and what they are today. Jesus' divinity was resolved by a vote! There were plenty of Christian sects who did not believe Jesus was divine. There are four "gospels" in the New Testament only because Irenaeus (living a hundred years after Jesus) decided there would only be that many--i.e. there's four winds therefore there should only be four gospels. This, in addition to the fact that all the gospels were written anonymously and were later attributed to a specific apostle. People chose what to leave out of the bible even though there were plenty of other gospels that were attributed to Jesus' followers such as the Gospel of Thomas and Gospel of Mary.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    see, that's just not a sound factual basis for a religion of blind faith
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    Elite Member Sweetie's Avatar
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    Is Grim trying to prove there is no God, or that he's excellent and multi-quoting?
    Last edited by Sweetie; March 31st, 2009 at 03:25 PM.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    like.. Bill & Ted kind of excellent?

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