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Thread: President Obama angry at Gen McChrystal's speech on Afghanistan

  1. #31
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    ^ Yes, I would most certainly agree that South Korea was a resounding success, and I think the 50 million Koreans living would agree when looking at the neighbor to the north.



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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post

    Protecting the West Germans from the East Germans.

    That was a multi-national force mainly comprised of Europeans, old bean.
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  3. #33
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    Photos aren't proof, dear. I can go anywhere and stage pictures.

    Like I said, go to the RAWA site or listen to their interviews. Women's Rights, like always, were used as propaganda. Now, no one cares much and not much has changed.

    BTW, before we started interfering in the Afghani situation, during the Reagan administration, a small minority of women wore veils or bags. The majority of women (mostly in cities) were literate and many were educated their at good universities. It had a strong secular society before the religious extremists received US support to take over.
    I think blaming the US for allowing religious extremists to take over is oversimplifying a very complex situation. The Afghani mujahideen were comprised of many groups, not all of whom were religious extremists. It's also been publically admitted by Zbigniew Brezinski that US aid to the muj began under Carter in July 1979, before the Sovs invaded. Reagan became Pres in Jan 1981.

    After the Sovs left in 1989, under Najibullah until his overthrow in 92 there was massive infighting between the various groups (which has been happening inside Afghanistan since forever). The Talibs had much support among the Afghans who were tired of the fighting. The Talibs also started as a nationalist Pashtun movement- which is the largest ethnic group in the country- hence the large support. The Talibs didn't even emerge until 94.

    Massoud- who led the Alliance of the North against the Talibs during the civil war, was the one supported by the US during the Reagan era and afterwards- until September 10, 2001, when he was killed by Al-Qaeda. Massoud was considered moderately progressive.

    It wasn't exactly religious extremists who received US support to take over.
    Last edited by witchcurlgirl; October 11th, 2009 at 09:31 PM.



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  4. #34
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    Photos aren't proof, dear. I can go anywhere and stage pictures.
    That sounds like that argument - "Who are you going to believe - me or your lying eyes?" I don't think the photos look staged at all. And I don't think you can go anywhere and stage photos. For example, I doubt you could stage the idea that there is a nudist colony in Sadr City.


    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    Like I said, go to the RAWA site or listen to their interviews. Women's Rights, like always, were used as propaganda. Now, no one cares much and not much has changed.

    BTW, before we started interfering in the Afghani situation, during the Reagan administration, a small minority of women wore veils or bags. The majority of women (mostly in cities) were literate and many were educated their at good universities. It had a strong secular society before the religious extremists received US support to take over.
    Women's rights were not a pretext for the invasion of Afghanistan. The invasion of Afghanistan was based on Afghanistan harbording Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. And the dominant post-invasion priority was to have a stable government that didn't harbor terrorist camps.

    And quite frankly, I question the basis for saying that a substantial percentage of women in Afghanistan were literate and educated at good universities. Especially since RAWA was protesting the treatment of women in Afghanistan even then.

  5. #35
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    That was a multi-national force mainly comprised of Europeans, old bean.
    The combined French and British zones were larger than the American. But the US having vastly more military power and economic aid (Morgenthau and Marshall plans) to leverage to protect and restore West Germany tilts a lot of credit in the U.S.'s column in my opinion.

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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    ^ absolutely.

    the french had quite a small presence overall in west berlin.

    this link shows all the military units that served in west berlin from the french, british and us military. you can clearly see the size of american presence there. it's quite untrue to say it was mostly europeans.

    Units
    Last edited by witchcurlgirl; October 11th, 2009 at 09:07 PM.



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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post



    Women's rights were not a pretext for the invasion of Afghanistan.

    And quite frankly, I question the basis for saying that a substantial percentage of women in Afghanistan were literate and educated at good universities. Especially since RAWA was protesting the treatment of women in Afghanistan even then.
    So you think that women wore bags before the Taliban? Look it up, sparky! Women could go to university before the Taliban. They could drive, go out in public, work at nearly any job. Girls had high literacy rates. Where do you think the members of RAWA came from? They were born of the Afghanistan that had some secular rule. They fight for the continuation or re-establishment of secular society in Afghanistan in it's fair treatment of women.

    Read on! You could learn something.

    So if a photograph affirms your prejudice you believe it?

    The blight of Afghani women sure WAS used to marshal support for military invasions in the Middle East! Clip after clip, constantly, showing how those poor Afghani women were treated! Shit, you didn't see Christine Amanpour go to a poor Afghani town and try to liberate 3 illiterate girls from their hut-living father? It was Afghani women, 24/7!

    But we got bored and moved on. And it was just too much mental effort. Let's look at staged photos and believe the best.

    No wonder the rest of the world wishes we would mind our own business.
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  8. #38
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    So you think that women wore bags before the Taliban? Look it up, sparky!
    Chronogram - Burqa Politics: The Plights of Women in Afghanistan

    "Further, the Taliban are not the inventors of the burqa. The garment existed prior to Taliban rule and was used by the urban elite to allow increased mobility. It is repeatedly argued by Afghan women that generalizations on the 'situation of women' based on visible transformations such as burqa or veil are not constructive. More important indicators exist "behind the burqa," so to speak."



    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    So if a photograph affirms your prejudice you believe it?
    I'm not sure how your statement follows from what we were discussing earlier. You were saying that women couldn't do this or that activity in Afghanistan. And I provided examples where women were doing those activities. Moreover, the photos are from articles that discuss the activities.

    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post

    The blight of Afghani women sure WAS used to marshal support for military invasions in the Middle East! Clip after clip, constantly, showing how those poor Afghani women were treated! Shit, you didn't see Christine Amanpour go to a poor Afghani town and try to liberate 3 illiterate girls from their hut-living father? It was Afghani women, 24/7!

    No wonder the rest of the world wishes we would mind our own business.
    The plight of Afghani women was not the basis for invading Iraq. The basis was the now-discredited argument that Saddam Hussein was creating weapons of mass destruction and that the clock was ticking in preventing him from using or disseminating them. Before the invasion, the windup centered on what Hussein was supposedly hiding from Hans Blix and the IAEA. Week in and out, the discussion was centered on this, not the plight of Afghani women.

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