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Thread: President Obama angry at Gen McChrystal's speech on Afghanistan

  1. #16
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    Source on change of women's lives in Afganistan?

    Everything I've read says women are in the exact same position they were 9 years ago. All wear Burkahs, most are not allowed out without and male relative, and very few girls in school.
    Gayle Tzemach Lemmon: Eight Years On: The View From Afghan Women

    Since 2001, women have capitalized on the opportunities created by the international community's presence. No one knows how much money has been spent on women's programs in Afghanistan, but that number is surely in the billions. Mistakes have been made and women's projects have often favored the short-sighted and the quick hit over the long-term investment and skills building. But even with these problems, women have registered significant gains, building a small but growing network of businesswomen and community advocates who now stand ready to contribute to their families and their communities' political and economic future.

    "You cannot expect so much change in one or two or even five years," says Dr. Noorkhanoom, a female doctor who has overseen maternal health programs for the Swiss NGO Terre des Hommes since the Taliban took Kabul in 1996. "I hope the international community will continue to support us; they left us once and they saw the negative results. If this country is secure, the region will be secure. If they leave this country again, it will be a crime."

    And from today's LA Times:

    Code Pink, fearful of setbacks for women, rethinks call for U.S. troops to withdraw from Afghanistan | Top of the Ticket | Los Angeles Times

    Now the left-wing activist group is rethinking its call for a deadline to withdraw all U.S. troops from Afghanistan. The reason: After a week spent in Kabul talking to female Afghan leaders, the group now understands their fears that a resurgent Taliban would probably target women and girls who have made tremendous progress since U.S. troops routed the fundamentalist militant group in 2002.
    "We have been feeling a sense of fear of the people of the return of the Taliban," Code Pink co-founder Medea Benjamin said in an interview with the Christian Science Monitor. "So many people are saying that if the U.S. troops left, the country would collapse. ... A palpable sense of fear that is making us start to reconsider" a deadline for troop withdrawal.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    i'm sorry, why don't the fucking people fight the fucking Taleban for a change. There's a thought.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    i'm sorry, why don't the fucking people fight the fucking Taleban for a change. There's a thought.
    In all seriousness, I don't see why we couldn't just give everyone there their own assault rifle and 1,000 rounds of ammo. And some rudimentary firearms training. I'm sure it wouldn't be any more expensive than what we're spending right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    In all seriousness, I don't see why we couldn't just give everyone there their own assault rifle and 1,000 rounds of ammo. And some rudimentary firearms training. I'm sure it wouldn't be any more expensive than what we're spending right now.
    It was actually a serious discussion, and pointed out here before. Analysis showed it's actually cheaper to arm and pay the Afghans themselves to fight and withdraw all our troops, than keep our troops there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    Gayle Tzemach Lemmon: Eight Years On: The View From Afghan Women

    Since 2001, women have capitalized on the opportunities created by the international community's presence. No one knows how much money has been spent on women's programs in Afghanistan, but that number is surely in the billions. Mistakes have been made and women's projects have often favored the short-sighted and the quick hit over the long-term investment and skills building. But even with these problems, women have registered significant gains, building a small but growing network of businesswomen and community advocates who now stand ready to contribute to their families and their communities' political and economic future.

    "You cannot expect so much change in one or two or even five years," says Dr. Noorkhanoom, a female doctor who has overseen maternal health programs for the Swiss NGO Terre des Hommes since the Taliban took Kabul in 1996. "I hope the international community will continue to support us; they left us once and they saw the negative results. If this country is secure, the region will be secure. If they leave this country again, it will be a crime."

    And from today's LA Times:

    Code Pink, fearful of setbacks for women, rethinks call for U.S. troops to withdraw from Afghanistan | Top of the Ticket | Los Angeles Times

    Now the left-wing activist group is rethinking its call for a deadline to withdraw all U.S. troops from Afghanistan. The reason: After a week spent in Kabul talking to female Afghan leaders, the group now understands their fears that a resurgent Taliban would probably target women and girls who have made tremendous progress since U.S. troops routed the fundamentalist militant group in 2002.
    "We have been feeling a sense of fear of the people of the return of the Taliban," Code Pink co-founder Medea Benjamin said in an interview with the Christian Science Monitor. "So many people are saying that if the U.S. troops left, the country would collapse. ... A palpable sense of fear that is making us start to reconsider" a deadline for troop withdrawal.
    Nothing solid here. Are girls now getting educations in Afghanistan? Do women allowed out in public without their bags on? Unescorted by male relative? How about driving? Speaking in public?

    Are women in Afghanistan allowed to see doctors when they are sick?

    The specific accusations against the Taliban in their treatment of women, used to move our hearts and minds 9 years ago, are not being addressed. All I can find is women are still in bags, still restricted, still forced to marry and stay in the house.

    Listen to NPR at all? Just this evening there was an interview with a representative from RAWA. She says nothing has changed for women in Afghanistan. It was an issue used to build US involvement in the war, now it's a "cultural issue" and hands off.
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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olivia View Post
    Nothing solid here. Are girls now getting educations in Afghanistan? Do women allowed out in public without their bags on? Unescorted by male relative? How about driving? Speaking in public?

    Are women in Afghanistan allowed to see doctors when they are sick?

    The specific accusations against the Taliban in their treatment of women, used to move our hearts and minds 9 years ago, are not being addressed. All I can find is women are still in bags, still restricted, still forced to marry and stay in the house.

    Listen to NPR at all? Just this evening there was an interview with a representative from RAWA. She says nothing has changed for women in Afghanistan. It was an issue used to build US involvement in the war, now it's a "cultural issue" and hands off.
    I don't see the fact that women's rights haven't advanced as fast as we would have liked in Afghanistan as a justification for rolling it back to when women had no rights at all.

    2006 - women outside without their bags on:



    Women/girls going to a school established in 2003 (Danish School for Girls in Farah Province). I don't see a lot of male escorts in the photo.




    Women waiting to be seen by doctors (June 2009):



    Women voting in Afghanistan:




    A woman driving in Bamian Afghanistan:

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    Elite Member CornFlakegrl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    ^ Hear, hear!

    On the plains of hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to wait, and waiting died.
    Great quote.

    Let's either get the hell out or send in enough troops to get it under control. And then get the hell out.

    I vote for get the hell out.

    I do NOT vote for let's talk about it for weeks and weeks and weeks while our troops are over there without a fucking clear objective.

  8. #23
    Elite Member Wiseguy's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting the encouraging news of the progress women in Afghanistan have made thanks to the troops' presence. I still cringe whenever I see that grotesque burqua they are forced to where. It literally turns my stomach. But, it's great to see the improved life women in Afghanistan now are beginning to enjoy.

    I can't imagine the fear these women must feel at the thought of a return to rule of the Taliban. Here is a quote from Rory Stewart, who is seen as one of the world's experts on Afghanistan:
    "For the Afghan people, a return to Taliban rule would condemn their country to brutal governance, international isolation, a paralysed economy, and the denial of basic human rights to the Afghan people especially women and girls. The return in force of al-Qaeda terrorists who would accompany the core Taliban leadership would cast Afghanistan under the shadow of perpetual violence."
    It's time we reduced the troops in Afghanistan to (say) 20,000. These troops can focus on counter terrorism. There is no way we can do much more. Every Afghan ruler in the 20th century was assassinated, lynched or deposed. The economy is undercut by a booming narcotics trade that encourages criminality and funds the insurgency. There is almost no economic activity in Afghanistan apart from the above. We can't fix the Afghan state - it has to come from within.


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    Here's what I would like to know after 8 years in Afganistan....exactly what is the definition of victory? I'm not for some amorphous shape shifting indefinate occupation. We've been there forever. We've spent over $1trillion there. What for? WHat is it we hope to accomplish? Let's get out. We've been fighting there as long as we were in WWI and WWII combined. Enough. And to be quite blunt, we have many more pressing needs at home to spend the money on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter View Post
    Here's what I would like to know after 8 years in Afganistan....exactly what is the definition of victory? I'm not for some amorphous shape shifting indefinate occupation. We've been there forever. We've spent over $1trillion there. What for? WHat is it we hope to accomplish? Let's get out. We've been fighting there as long as we were in WWI and WWII combined. Enough. And to be quite blunt, we have many more pressing needs at home to spend the money on.
    Good question. We were originally there to eliminate al Qaeda and in particular Osama. Well, we slowed them down but they are just across the border in Pakistan gaining strength and allies right now. Now we seem to be providing security to the population from the terrorism of the Taliban and its allies.


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    When did that become our job?

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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    I'm not saying it's our job, but it's not without precedent:

    Protecting the south Vietnamese from the north Vietnamese.

    Protecting the south Koreans from the north Koreans.

    Protecting the West Germans from the East Germans.

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    Well, I'd like to point out that neither Vietnam nor Korea was what you could call a success for the US. And I dont necessarily agree that it was our job to protect one half of germany from the other half. They seem to have gotten along both before and after when we were there...

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    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter View Post
    Well, I'd like to point out that neither Vietnam nor Korea was what you could call a success for the US. And I dont necessarily agree that it was our job to protect one half of germany from the other half. They seem to have gotten along both before and after when we were there...
    South Vietnam wasn't but South Korea was. South Korea is a democracy and one of the larger economies in the world, while North Korea is a basket case that resorts to creating nukes to extort money from other countries.

    And if East and West Germany had gotten along, there would have been no need for a Berlin Wall (established by East Germany) to keep East Germans from fleeing into West Germany for over 25 years.

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    [quote=MohandasKGanja;1912146]I don't see the fact that women's rights haven't advanced as fast as we would have liked in Afghanistan as a justification for rolling it back to when women had no rights at all.


    Photos aren't proof, dear. I can go anywhere and stage pictures.

    Like I said, go to the RAWA site or listen to their interviews. Women's Rights, like always, were used as propaganda. Now, no one cares much and not much has changed.

    BTW, before we started interfering in the Afghani situation, during the Reagan administration, a small minority of women wore veils or bags. The majority of women (mostly in cities) were literate and many were educated their at good universities. It had a strong secular society before the religious extremists received US support to take over.
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