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Thread: Obama reiterates promise to 'end' 'Don't Ask'

  1. #46
    Elite Member bychance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkly View Post
    Yeah and it's 2009 and here we are voting over whether or not gays should have the right to be treated like the rest of us. So what's your point? Lots of different ethnic groups have been enslaved throughout history, and yes, it is proof of how primitive the human race is, but that has nothing to do with gays deserving equal rights.
    So? I'm talking about here in America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    gay people have been oppressed and subjugated in most cultures SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME

    Read up on interracial marriage before you continue embarrassing yourself.

    This has already been done here before, and by better people. Blacks had some rights gays did not, and gays had some rights blacks did not.. unless you were a black gay person, THEN YOU HAD NOTHING
    You can't hide being black, or not being a woman. You can do that with your sexual preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Yes, gay people want their rights. Stop trying to make this a case of who has had it worse. The history of blacks in this country and the history of gays throughout the world are not the same. Take this struggle as your own. Be prepared to apply steady pressure for years. Expecting one entity to pick up the fight and win it for you, which did not happen with the Civil Rights movement, is ridiculous. This is a process, which requires organization, perseverance, what is obviously the most lacking thus for, strategy, and the most difficult of all, changing the minds of the citizens as a whole. You seem to forget politicians represent their constituents and will not do something that drastically opposes what the voters who put them in office want.
    That was my not point or intention. To compare gay rights to the magnitude of the civil rights movement is simply ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    Your civil rights are not more important than mine because you are black and I am gay-they are equally important, and of the same magnitude IMO, and the gays who are also black who I have known agree with the sentiment.
    I never said they were. They're not of the same magnitude in my opinion. Not even close.

    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Do you understand the FEDERAL, keyword there, SUPREME COURT chooseswhich cases it will hear? Do you also understand that a STATE Supreme Court has no bearing outside the boundaries of said state? So you would be happy with a handful of states accepting it? Or am I to understand that most members of the gay rights movement want FEDERAL level laws? No, even if 49 states legalize gay marriage, the one holding out can not be forced to acknowledge the union, so what is your point on STATE LEVEL legislation again?

    Do you understand that even if 20 states recognize gay marriage, states will have the right to ignore said marriages? You better read up on the wording of some of the state legislation in states that voted to ban it already. They prepared for this and worded the laws accordingly.

    Sorry, but being gay and ethnicity aren't the same. Gay may cut across every sector of society, but it has been seen negatively in almost every society since the darn of civilization, whether European, African, Asian, etc. Your point?

    Some states will allow it. Some won't. Without federal intervention, you will have nothing more than a few oases. Without federalintervention, DADT will go nowhere. So what are you truly gaining when a mere state says it will change its laws?
    I don't believe so in ancient times. Many mythological figures are described as being gay or bisexual, and many rulers were acknowledged of having homosexual relationships with other men (i.e. Caligula).

  2. #47
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bychance View Post
    So? I'm talking about here in America.



    You can't hide being black, or not being a woman. You can do that with your sexual preference.
    Tell that to the flaming queen down the street who refuses to "act" like one of you just to avoid being shitkicked.



    That was not point or intention. To compare gay rights to the magnitude of the civil rights movement is simply ridiculous.
    Says someone who was never there for the first, and isn't impacted by the second. The people living without equal rights NOW have a leg up on you.

    Your sense of entitlement makes me want to puke.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  3. #48
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    I don't believe so in ancient times.
    Then you don't know your fucking history.

    Fustuarium: punishment in the Roman legions by stoning to death or clubbing for a variety of crimes, one of them homosexual relationships.. they thought it would lead to lack of unit cohesion.

    Again, library. You should be friends with it.
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  4. #49
    Elite Member bychance's Avatar
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    So it was only acceptable for men in power [i.e. Roman ruler Caligula] were not prosecuted for being gay/bisexual than?

    Do I really have to 'be there' for the former? I'm not Jewish, nor was I around in the early 1930-40s, but I can say the Holocaust was one of the worst events in history.

    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleWasHere View Post
    Don't ask don't tell IS that important... Gay rights ARE that important... If this were about pondering whether or not blacks or Mexicans could serve in the military, there'd be whole other tunes being sung, and battle cries ringing up and down every neighborhood street... Don't even try to act like gay rights and black rights aren't the same, because they are. Black rights weren't supported by a majority at one point, either, and now look... Maybe we should just let straight, white males have all the freedom and rights again, since we're obviously so backwards with who should have certain rights and who shouldn't!
    No point in pondering about such as that. Blacks served in the military in segregated stations.

  5. #50
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Yes, and gays merely get booted out after witch hunts.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  6. #51
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleWasHere View Post
    Don't ask don't tell IS that important... Gay rights ARE that important... If this were about pondering whether or not blacks or Mexicans could serve in the military, there'd be whole other tunes being sung, and battle cries ringing up and down every neighborhood street... Don't even try to act like gay rights and black rights aren't the same, because they are. Black rights weren't supported by a majority at one point, either, and now look... Maybe we should just let straight, white males have all the freedom and rights again, since we're obviously so backwards with who should have certain rights and who shouldn't!
    Agree with the points in bold. But the difference is that there was a consistent and concerted effort by blacks and other minority groups to garner those rights. And there was no room for compromise.

    Gays chose to compromise with DADT, which was a mistake. And some gays are willing to compromise again by saying just suspend DADT instead of just outright repealing it. When any minority group is being denied civil rights, and makes compromises, then the larger society doesn't feel the pressure to make any change.
    Last edited by kingcap72; June 4th, 2009 at 12:10 PM.

  7. #52
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    No goddamit. SUSPEND IT UNTIL CONGRESS LOOKS IT OVER AND HOPEFULLY REPEALS IT

    if not, gtfo.

    Barry sitting there and saying "oh we'll end DADT" or actually that he'll "change" it (using his current pretzel logic and language) but doing nothing to stop the discharges happening in the meantime is ridiculous.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  8. #53
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Suspending DADT if Congress plans to repeal it isn't a bad idea. But suspending it with no clear idea of whether they will ever repeal it doesn't mean anything, because the law itself doesn't change. And suspending the law indefinitely isn't changing the law, that's just a compromise and not civil rights equality. That's like suspending 'sit in the back of the bus,' but not changing the law itself.

    And Obama deserves to catch extra heat for DADT since he promised to repeal it. But the heat should've been on Clinton, Dubya, and Congress for years to repeal DADT.

  9. #54
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    DADT should have been fought when it was introduced.

    Obama can suspend DADT, but he can NOT repeal it. There is no indication whether enough legislators would even support repealing DADT to make just that happen. Suspension is not a viable solution, since it could last only as long as it takes to get someone else in the White House, or prompt new legislation, even harsher than DADT, in retaliation for the suspension. I am quite sure the military pressure to leave DADT alone is quite high.

    Until the military, which has excellent political persuasion skills, becomes overwhelmingly open to accepting gays, DADT or some similar measure, will continue to be utilized.



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    Elite Member Aella's Avatar
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    Oh, for fuck's sake.

    Yes, the current gay civil rights movement is not exactly like the civil rights movement of the 60s. Homophobia does not equal racism, does not equal the Holocaust, does not equal the Armenian genocide, does not equal the plight of women in Saudi Arabia and so on. None of those things are exactly alike aside from being examples of the what the worst instincts of humanity lead to. However, I don't see what attempting to 'rank' them could possibly achieve. And I can't imagine how those debates make anyone who happens to belong to more than one of those groups feel.

    Systematic oppression of any group based solely on them being different to the ones in power is unacceptable, period. And I agree with those who pointed out that there never seems to be a 'right time' for politicians to deal with hot-button topics.
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  11. #56
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    I don't think it's a matter of trying to rank civil rights movements.

    The simple fact is this. In the 60's, the top priority for blacks was civil rights, the top priority for Kennedy and the country was the Cold War. In 2009, the top priority for gays is civil rights, the top priority for Obama and the country is the economy and two wars.

    Blacks didn't wait around for the government and the country to get comfortable with or catch up to the civil rights movement and gays can't do that either.

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