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Thread: Obama reiterates promise to 'end' 'Don't Ask'

  1. #31
    Elite Member NicoleWasHere's Avatar
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    Don't ask don't tell IS that important... Gay rights ARE that important... If this were about pondering whether or not blacks or Mexicans could serve in the military, there'd be whole other tunes being sung, and battle cries ringing up and down every neighborhood street... Don't even try to act like gay rights and black rights aren't the same, because they are. Black rights weren't supported by a majority at one point, either, and now look... Maybe we should just let straight, white males have all the freedom and rights again, since we're obviously so backwards with who should have certain rights and who shouldn't!

  2. #32
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    You are stating that you ARE the opposition, dammit. I am pissed off not because you think it is not possible at this time, but because you AGREE that it SHOULD not be possible at this time, by your own damn statement. Get it now?
    See, this is what I am talking about. When someone points out the the obvious, you take it as aggression. It is not. Gay rights are not one of the paramount concerns for this country overall. Do the words "at this time" become invisible? No one is saying you shouldn't be heard, but to demand to be put on top of the to do list, over the economy, healthcare, and foreign relations, is preposterous and pompous.



  3. #33
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Do you understand the FEDERAL, keyword there, SUPREME COURT chooseswhich cases it will hear? Do you also understand that a STATE Supreme Court has no bearing outside the boundaries of said state? So you would be happy with a handful of states accepting it? Or am I to understand that most members of the gay rights movement want FEDERAL level laws? No, even if 49 states legalize gay marriage, the one holding out can not be forced to acknowledge the union, so what is your point on STATE LEVEL legislation again?

    Do you understand that even if 20 states recognize gay marriage, states will have the right to ignore said marriages? You better read up on the wording of some of the state legislation in states that voted to ban it already. They prepared for this and worded the laws accordingly.

    Sorry, but being gay and ethnicity aren't the same. Gay may cut across every sector of society, but it has been seen negatively in almost every society since the darn of civilization, whether European, African, Asian, etc. Your point?

    Some states will allow it. Some won't. Without federal intervention, you will have nothing more than a few oases. Without federalintervention, DADT will go nowhere. So what are you truly gaining when a mere state says it will change its laws?
    My point has been stated, and you once again have provided with your own words fodder for this post. Through your own statement that gays have been seen negatively by nearly every society since the 'dawn' of civilization, then I would hope you would agree we have faced MORE discrimination, not less, and I would hope you would want civil rights for gays to be of utmost importance, but your quoted comment indicates our rights SHOULD be on the backburner, in your opinion.

    With supporters like you(if you are in fact one), we hardly need enemies now do we?
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  4. #34
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Repeal the CRA. I can assure you, those who lose their rights will teach the gay rights movement how it is done. Complaining to one man would not be the method.

    It's a battle. You either get a viable battle plan together or you accept what you have. If you can't take the recon and use it without getting pissed off and emotional, then you will never advance.



  5. #35
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    See, this is what I am talking about. When someone points out the the obvious, you take it as aggression. It is not. Gay rights are not one of the paramount concerns for this country overall. Do the words "at this time" become invisible? No one is saying you shouldn't be heard, but to demand to be put on top of the to do list, over the economy, healthcare, and foreign relations, is preposterous and pompous.
    And I am sure bigots said the EXACT same thing when blacks were clamoring for civil rights in the fifties and sixties. 'Civil Rights for blacks..when we are fighting the communists, are at war in Korea and Vietnam, etc. etc. being on the top of the list, why that is preposterous and pompous. They need to wait their turn.'

    You sound like a bigot. Sorry, but you do.
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  6. #36
    Super Moderator twitchy2.0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    See, this is what I am talking about. When someone points out the the obvious, you take it as aggression. It is not. Gay rights are not one of the paramount concerns for this country overall. Do the words "at this time" become invisible? No one is saying you shouldn't be heard, but to demand to be put on top of the to do list, over the economy, healthcare, and foreign relations, is preposterous and pompous.
    "At this time"?

    When is a good time?

    When are human rights more conveniently put into the schedule?
    Is the government unable to multitask?
    "If you are not outraged, then you are not paying attention," Heather Heyer's facebook quote.

  7. #37
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Repeal the CRA. I can assure you, those who lose their rights will teach the gay rights movement how it is done. Complaining to one man would not be the method.

    It's a battle. You either get a viable battle plan together or you accept what you have. If you can't take the recon and use it without getting pissed off and emotional, then you will never advance.
    YOU are telling us by your own text that you think our battle is NOT important enought to be on the front burner, but now are saying this. Be consistent, at least. And if it is your civil rights being contested, I doubt you would be 'completely emotionally detached'. Right. Get real.

    would the Civil Rights movement have gotten anywhere with support like this?

    *See..it is threads like this that make me think that racial minorities in the United States tend to see 'racial civil rights' as more important and more inherent than 'sexual orientation' civil rights. If that is true, then just cut the crap and come out and state it. Own it and go from there.
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  8. #38
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    My point has been stated, and you once again have provided with your own words fodder for this post. Through your own statement that gays have been seen negatively by nearly every society since the 'dawn' of civilization, then I would hope you would agree we have faced MORE discrimination, not less, and I would hope you would want civil rights for gays to be of utmost importance, but your quoted comment indicates our rights SHOULD be on the backburner, in your opinion.

    With supporters like you(if you are in fact one), we hardly need enemies now do we?
    Actually, no I will not say you have faced more discrimination within this country. Homosexual acts have not been accepted by many for many centuries. True. The foundations are comparing apples and oranges, when looking strictly at America.

    As someone said, it isn't a pissing contest. Who kidnapped gays and put them to work for free? Does your employer beat you, castrate you, or sever limbs is you dare so much as seem to entertain the idea of not agreeing with him wholly? Are you considered three-fifths of a human? Do you have the right to vote? Can you live in straight neighborhoods? The list goes on and on.

    You can take what I say any way you like. The point is, regardless of where gays are in history or the world, for the most part, they are not accepted. In the case of American blacks, the situation was a people were forcibly brought to a country, put to work, emancipated, yet not given the basic freedoms emancipation should have provided them.

    I have made it very clear before, I think marriage is an archaic institution and wouldn't blink a fucking eye if suddenly no one had the right to do it. So why would I care if everyone had the right?

    DADT being repealed and the right for gays to marry do not outweigh having a roof over my head, food on my table, avoiding a another depression, giving everyone equal access to medical care, and preventing jihadi freaks trying to kill me.

    Maybe if I were gay, DADT and DOMA would take precedent in my life, regardless of how shortened it could be by the economic, medical, and foreign psycho threats.



  9. #39
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    And I am sure bigots said the EXACT same thing when blacks were clamoring for civil rights in the fifties and sixties. 'Civil Rights for blacks..when we are fighting the communists, are at war in Korea and Vietnam, etc. etc. being on the top of the list, why that is preposterous and pompous. They need to wait their turn.'

    You sound like a bigot. Sorry, but you do.
    Do you honestly think the word "bigot" bothers me? Those who point out the problems within the gay rights movement or how the demand for attention over everything else is pompous are called that every day. Don't forget the homophobe. I am sure that is coming, too.

    If gays can't have marriage, ban it for everyone. I don't care either way. If gays want to go into the military, let them. Enough straights want no part of it.



  10. #40
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    YOU are telling us by your own text that you think our battle is NOT important enought to be on the front burner, but now are saying this. Be consistent, at least. And if it is your civil rights being contested, I doubt you would be 'completely emotionally detached'. Right. Get real.

    would the Civil Rights movement have gotten anywhere with support like this?

    *See..it is threads like this that make me think that racial minorities in the United States tend to see 'racial civil rights' as more important and more inherent than 'sexual orientation' civil rights. If that is true, then just cut the crap and come out and state it. Own it and go from there.
    Comprehend this, if, as some poster suggested, minorities found their rights taken away tomorrow, the fight to get them back would be nothing like the disorganized gay rights movement. It would also not be as quiet as the prior Civil Right Movement.

    You want Obama to DO SOMETHING NOW NOW NOW. Hello? He can't. You don't want to admit that. If he pushed for legislation now, it wouldn't be favorable to gays.

    Point blank: Obama can't give you your rights. The Supreme Court doesn't want to be bothered with it. The legislators like their cushy jobs too much to upset their constituents. If Obama tried to push the hand, he, and his highly politically savvy team, have to know they would find themselves hitting a brick wall, and losing support in other areas. They won't risk it.

    Sometimes reality is a bitch. Maybe phrasing it this way will help. The changes you seek are not going to happen right this minute.



  11. #41
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Actually, no I will not say you have faced more discrimination within this country. Homosexual acts have not been accepted by many for many centuries. True. The foundations are comparing apples and oranges, when looking strictly at America.

    As someone said, it isn't a pissing contest. Who kidnapped gays and put them to work for free? Does your employer beat you, castrate you, or sever limbs is you dare so much as seem to entertain the idea of not agreeing with him wholly? Are you considered three-fifths of a human? Do you have the right to vote? Can you live in straight neighborhoods? The list goes on and on.

    You can take what I say any way you like. The point is, regardless of where gays are in history or the world, for the most part, they are not accepted. In the case of American blacks, the situation was a people were forcibly brought to a country, put to work, emancipated, yet not given the basic freedoms emancipation should have provided them.

    I have made it very clear before, I think marriage is an archaic institution and wouldn't blink a fucking eye if suddenly no one had the right to do it. So why would I care if everyone had the right?

    DADT being repealed and the right for gays to marry do not outweigh having a roof over my head, food on my table, avoiding a another depression, giving everyone equal access to medical care, and preventing jihadi freaks trying to kill me.

    Maybe if I were gay, DADT and DOMA would take precedent in my life, regardless of how shortened it could be by the economic, medical, and foreign psycho threats.
    Well marriage has a lot of legal rights that go with it. Since it is so unimportant, I guess if black marriages or interracial marriages were declared illegal tomorrow, it would not bother you one bit then, right? Right. You admitted that basically since it is not YOUR rights, then you really do not care as much. Congrats on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Do you honestly think the word "bigot" bothers me? Those who point out the problems within the gay rights movement or how the demand for attention over everything else is pompous are called that every day. Don't forget the homophobe. I am sure that is coming, too.
    Just because you support Racial Equal Rights over Gay Equal Rights, and feel that gays do not deserve the same rights at the same time, should 'wait their turn', are not comparable in their struggle for civil rights to blacks, etc. etc. does not make me think you are afraid of gays or hate gays. It just makes me feel sorry for you.
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  12. #42
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Comprehend this, if, as some poster suggested, minorities found their rights taken away tomorrow, the fight to get them back would be nothing like the disorganized gay rights movement. It would also not be as quiet as the prior Civil Right Movement.

    You want Obama to DO SOMETHING NOW NOW NOW. Hello? He can't. You don't want to admit that. If he pushed for legislation now, it wouldn't be favorable to gays.

    Point blank: Obama can't give you your rights. The Supreme Court doesn't want to be bothered with it. The legislators like their cushy jobs too much to upset their constituents. If Obama tried to push the hand, he, and his highly politically savvy team, have to know they would find themselves hitting a brick wall, and losing support in other areas. They won't risk it.

    Sometimes reality is a bitch. Maybe phrasing it this way will help. The changes you seek are not going to happen right this minute.

    I never said that the changes CAN happen right now-that was Grimm's argument. What I am talking about is you saying they SHOULD NOT happen right now, and that gay equal rights are basically lesser than racial equal rights, and yeah, that is what you really have been saying. It shows through your arguments.

    If we CANNOT get the rights right now, YOU are part of the problem. :
    DADT and DOMA are not in the top priorities for the country overall, and to be blunt, at this time, shouldn't be.
    Get it?
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  13. #43
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    Well marriage has a lot of legal rights that go with it. Since it is so unimportant, I guess if black marriages or interracial marriages were declared illegal tomorrow, it would not bother you one bit then, right? Right. You admitted that basically since it is not YOUR rights, then you really do not care as much. Congrats on that.
    I do not believe in marriage. While I have the right to marry, I also have the right to decide not to. I have actually been involved in an interracial marriage. You and I know why an interracial marriage is not seen the same way as a gay marriage.


    Just because you support Racial Equal Rights over Gay Equal Rights, and feel that gays do not deserve the same rights at the same time, should 'wait their turn', are not comparable in their struggle for civil rights to blacks, etc. etc. does not make me think you are afraid of gays or hate gays. It just makes me feel sorry for you.
    Oh, there you go putting words in people's mouths. Why am I not surprised? How much simpler do you need it to be? Everyone deserves equal rights, but those who can make that happen WON'T. The politicians are going to focus upon what the majority wants. Right now, that is the economy and foreign relations. You don't like it? CHANGE IT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    I never said that the changes CAN happen right now-that was Grimm's argument. What I am talking about is you saying they SHOULD NOT happen right now, and that gay equal rights are basically lesser than racial equal rights, and yeah, that is what you really have been saying. It shows through your arguments.

    If we CANNOT get the rights right now, YOU are part of the problem. : Get it?
    What I said was gay rights are not the paramount issue facing this country right now, regardless of how gays feel. There are issues I would love to see broached, but, in the grand scheme of things, they are not as pressing.

    Maybe to gay people they are. The big picture? Nope. Sorry.



  14. #44
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    I do not believe in marriage. While I have the right to marry, I also have the right to decide not to. I have actually been involved in an interracial marriage. You and I know why an interracial marriage is not seen the same way as a gay marriage.




    Oh, there you go putting words in people's mouths. Why am I not surprised? How much simpler do you need it to be? Everyone deserves equal rights, but those who can make that happen WON'T. The politicians are going to focus upon what the majority wants. Right now, that is the economy and foreign relations. You don't like it? CHANGE IT!

    Wow, did no one here take any poli sci courses as electives?
    oh WE do know this? And you talk about putting words in people's mouth. Please.

    You are one of those people who are part of why it will not happen.

    DADT and DOMA are not in the top priorities for the country overall, and to be blunt, at this time, shouldn't be.
    You never said, 'they are not top priorities, too bad I think they should be'. You agree with it. You are part of the thing that needs changed, do you not comprehend that?

    and I have had seven years of college, and yes I briefly majored in Political Science, and then mostly studied Social and Economic Geography, and your last comment was pretty petty indeed. And on behalf of the other people you insulted with your comment, thanks for that.
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  15. #45
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    I do not believe in marriage. While I have the right to marry, I also have the right to decide not to. I have actually been involved in an interracial marriage. You and I know why an interracial marriage is not seen the same way as a gay marriage.


    Oh, there you go putting words in people's mouths. Why am I not surprised? How much simpler do you need it to be? Everyone deserves equal rights, but those who can make that happen WON'T. The politicians are going to focus upon what the majority wants. Right now, that is the economy and foreign relations. You don't like it? CHANGE IT!



    What I said was gay rights are not the paramount issue facing this country right now, regardless of how gays feel. There are issues I would love to see broached, but, in the grand scheme of things, they are not as pressing.

    Maybe to gay people they are. The big picture? Nope. Sorry.
    And exactly what would you have called someone who said this:

    'Civil Rights for Blacks are not the paramount issue facing this country right now, regardless of how blacks feel. There are issues I would love to see broached, but, in the grand scheme of things, they are not as pressing. Maybe to black people they are. The big picture? Nope. Sorry."

    in 1959, not 2009? What would that word have been?

    *gotta go to work ya know..can we start fighting about this Friday again? I have to work till Friday at 9am, with just a six hour break..?
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

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