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Thread: No sympathy for Detroit at a Kia plant in Georgia

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Saturn has never made a profit.
    Funny, I actually thought Saturn had the best business model and the best cars of them all. I was wondering how they were doing. Oh, well.

  2. #32
    Elite Member Just Kill Me's Avatar
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    I own a Saturn and it is fucking awesome.
    KILLING ME WON'T BRING BACK YOUR GOD DAMNED HONEY!!!!!!!!!!

    Come on, let's have lots of drinks.

    Fuck you all, I'm going viral.

  3. #33
    Elite Member celeb_2006's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.C. View Post
    This thread started me thinking about some of the jobs I've done/seen/heard about in the industry. I remember when I had air conditioning put in my house. I was at work all day in a good 120 degree heat and wasn't able to sleep at night because of the heat. One of the jobs at the plant involved using a pair of pliers to grab a steel rod that had been heated to red hot to be made into a coil spring. Protective clothing is mandatory. Welders jackets, boots, coveralls, the works. We made the stabilizer bars and the coil springs. Both were heated to red hot in order to be formed. Ovens all around for the different heat treatments that were need. Workers handling the red hot bars and rods to be bent, no automation. All the while breathing toxic fumes. Someone said once we could build a sway bar out of the junk we got out of our noses everyday. Metal particles floating in the air up our noses, faces covered in black film, clothing catching on fire. Sweating out of every orifice possible. lol

    I think about the welders in all their protective gear. The toxins in the guts of the catalytic converters we built. The toxins in the coolant solutions used in the machining operations. The fumes the painters breath in everyday all while wearing protective clothing with no air-conditioning in a hot f-in factory. The workers in the pit at assembly plants working with their arms above their heads all day. The ones putting the wheels on in an assembly plants. Fingers cut off, bones broken. I could go on....mind you I'm not complaining, I've made a good living at it.

    The UAW came about for a reason. The wages came about for a reason. Does the UAW's make to much money? Who am I to say. I work in the industry and I'm probably not going to give a bias opinion. Most of the foreign companies are paying just a few dollars less per hour than the American companies to keep the union out from what I've read. I'm surprised Kia is paying such a low wage (in comparision to the other companies). BTW new hires in the plants now make around $15. Not that there are many new hires, mostly their hiring to help until seniority employees can be moved into other plants and helping with plants that are closing.
    Dang I was sweating just reading this.

  4. #34
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    The line is a hard job.. my buddy does it for toyota.. it's basically like lifting and holding a 50 lb weight all day long. It destroyes your cartilage, joints, gives you muscle issues..
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  5. #35
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    I will never agree that unskilled workers shouldn't be paid $15-$20 per hour. Not only is it a hard job in the auto industry but I used to work in a sock mill and worked 8 hard hours making socks. You work in these industries for a week and get back to me on what you think the pay scale should be. Seems to me the people with all the education are the ones running these industries into the ground and want to place the blame on the unions that are only trying to protect the common worker.

  6. #36
    Elite Member B.C.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    The companies in the auto industry are approaching the government with a request for money in the form of a loan, but at this point, I see it as a grant, and will, until they prove otherwise. Even if the companies go into the green, their past history of greed and financial mismanagement does not lead me to believe they would be above asking for loan forgiveness or trying another tactic to weasel out of the debt.

    Even worse, if the same people are left in charge, how can anyone think they will avoid the past errors and resist temptation?

    If an idiot, who has proven money burns holes in his pockets is loaned anything, consider it a gift unless it is repaid. Then consider it a nice surprise.
    I guess I'm more optimistic than most of the country. Hopefully Obama will level the playing field. We have a 835 billion dollar trade deficit and unfair trade laws. I agree with you about the workers in other fields should be making more. I have family and friends that work their asses off for less than $10 an hour. The UAW represents more than just the autoworkers. There are casino workers, steel workers, smaller auto parts vendors, nurses, secretaries and other working class employees not involved with the auto industry. I have friends that negotiate for the union, the UAW is for all workers getting decent wages and health care benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by celeb_2006 View Post
    Dang I was sweating just reading this.
    Good times!

    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    I've always been curious to know just how much of the labor component constitutes the cost of an American or foreign car.

    People keep saying that American cars are getting killed, competitively speaking, by the union wage costs driving up the car's total cost, but just how much is that, comparatively speaking? There are a lot of inexpensive American cars out there -- cheaper than foreign cars. So, how does the cost component of a union worker actually negatively impact that?

    One issue that I think American cars take a big hit on is quality. Even though it has improved, if you look at a Consumer Reports review of cars, Honda and Toyota cars look excellent across the board -- while American cars seem to get middling quality scores at best.

    Because a car is a big freaking investment, quality is not a minor issue. An American (Deming) taught the Japanese about quality. What happened that we still lag in this area?
    The cost is 9-10% for labor. That number inclues future retirement benefits and the benefits for those retired. UAW president Ron said today even if the UAW agreed to work for nothing the loan is still needed. From the last comsumer report article I read a few weeks ago Ford was up with Toyota in safety and quality. I don't price the foreign vehicles but I did look on line once. I got bored with that pretty quick but from what I saw Fords looked to be at the same price and got the same mpg as foreign. And I know that is debatable, like I said I don't shop for anything but American.

    What gets me is when congress had the bankers in front of them they weren't questioning them if they rode in a company jet to get there. Not saying the big three should have rode in jets. They weren't looking into the books to see what their employees wages were. When the contracts were signed between the UAW and the big three the companies were in good shape. For people not to see that the banking fall out has contributed to the Big Threes problem is what I don't understand. Many factors are involved in the problems of the situation, trade laws, banking, health care and the legacy cost of retirees.... And yes I know, quality, fuel efficiency, design, etc. On CNN news now I am hearing all industries accross the world are asking their goverments for loans. We are in a global recession.
    Last edited by B.C.; December 3rd, 2008 at 03:04 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Str8_uncut-jock View Post
    ^dang, you draw a hard line...but I like it! Someone needs to be saying these things to the people making decisions about the industry! I agree... Buick is dead...has been for over a decade. That is a waste of money....no question about it.

    Chevy should focus on trucks for the commercial industry and smaller, fuel efficient cars that are reasonably priced with exceptional warranties! Cadillac could make a comeback...but it too is a long shot.
    I have to be a realist, which means sometimes I am seen as a hard ass. I'm not. I just don't let nostalgia and emotions cloud common sense. I would love to see Buick turn around and rise from grave. Is that going to happen? Hell no. Amputate the necrotic limb if you want to save the life of the entity to which it is attached.

    GM-ITA agree with what Str8 stated. I applaud GM for its hybrid advances, but there is still more that can be done. Look to the past and the future and find a way to meld them. Remember when GM had cutting edge style, like in the early nineties when they introduced the brand new body styles for Pontiac? Those cars flew off the showroom floors. Add reliability and fuel economy to aesthetic advancements and a winner is born.

    Ford- Styling is its main issue. The Taurus is larger mid-size sedan and gets respectable gas mileage in ratio to its seating and storage capacity. Why doesn't it sell better? It's plain! The consumer base is shallow, even if we don't like to admit it. Make the body pleasing and get the customers in, then sell them on the other values. Trucks and SUV's need styling and fuel economy makeovers. While that is being done, emphasize the positives on vehicles already available.

    Chrysler- Focus on Dodge! Almost every market has an entry under that division. Keep Jeep, just because it has a cult-like following, but don't dump money into it.

    If GR gossipers can come up with common sense based plans, why are the bozos in suits raking in the cash? Hire us dammit!



  8. #38
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Ugh no, stop referencing the past for cars.. then you get abominations like the new Camaro.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  9. #39
    Elite Member Mivvi21's Avatar
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    ^^I agree. The new Camaro is hideous. So are the new Mustangs,Chargers,and Gto's. The old meets new body style is for shit.

  10. #40
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    I can see the looking to the past point was seriously misunderstood. I meant look at the fundamentals which made certain car launches and lines very successful. That isn't a difficult concept. Those cars has styling which had never been seen, advancements in technology, and were unique, which in the past, were goals the US car companies diligently tried to meet. Those ideals has nothing to do with the ridiculous notion, that designing an abomination and bestowing the name of a classic upon it, will work, which isn't being unique.

    The past showed success. Obviously somewhere along the way, approaches and ideas which worked were cast aside for replacements which bombed.



  11. #41
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    I own a 2005 Ford Freestyle. I got it at an auction for super cheap, paid cash for it, it was a former fleet car for the local blood bank and it has 214,000 miles on it. I love this car. It's NEVER advertised. I think Ford is totally missing the boat by not promoting this car. I can fit 6 kids in it (under the age of 10) plus hubby and myself, gets decent gas mileage and cup holders for all. Seems shallow, but cup holders are very important for moms. It's a great car and I would own another one.

    I've also owned:

    Ford Mustang (never get another one, got stuck in a inch of snow)
    Ford Ranger (hubby's truck. It was ok.)
    Acura Integra (Great car, would buy another Acura in a heartbeat!)
    Olds Alero (meh.)
    Mazda Protege (Another great car.)
    Mitsubshi Montero (It's ok, not my favorite.)

    I don't have a problem with the bailout for the Auto makers for a couple of reasons. 1) It's a loan. 2) It's only 5% of what Paulson got for bailout money.

    The real outrage is that Paulson's spent 350 billion of the bailout money and where the fuck did it go? To pay off some of Paulson's buddies? When it was the banks, no one questioned, no one grilled, and the banks that received the bailout funds, didn't use it for what it was intended for, but instead, picked up new assets.

    With that said, I think unions had their place in the day, but are now obsolete. Unions were formed when workers made pennies per day in substandard conditions. There are now standards in place OSHA and what not, and employees are not taken advantage of in the way they used to have been. I think the union needs to go away.

    BTW, my hubby makes just over $15 per hour, he's 38 and been on the job 8 years. He's a truck driver. I know plenty of people here that work in manufacturing that are making 60-100K per year. One is my brother in law, and he doesn't do much. If my hubby could get hired, he would in a minute.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MohandasKGanja View Post
    . . .

    Because a car is a big freaking investment, quality is not a minor issue. An American (Deming) taught the Japanese about quality. What happened that we still lag in this area?
    thank you!!! deming taught the japanese everything and the american auto industry was too arrogant to listen and learn. and this is where we are now. besides quality, deming taught companies to listen to their customers and streamlined management so that companies could respond to their customers' needs and institute change quickly. and judging from what i saw on cspan this morning, the auto ceo's have a lot to learn.

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