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Thread: No sympathy for Detroit at a Kia plant in Georgia

  1. #16
    Elite Member celeb_2006's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    The cuts and concessions now are too little, too late. The effects of decades of greed can not be rectified with those now.

    While I feel for those who are jobless, or soon will be, this has been a long time coming. Even fifteen dollars per hour for an unskilled position is excessive.

    Every salary, from custodial to the highest levels of management, should be evaluated and adjusted. Regulations must be put in place to prevent this from happening again.

    This brings up an interesting point. I don't know, it may be 'unskilled labor' in terms of not requiring advanced degrees and specialized schooling/training, but it is still a hard job to do. I wouldn't want to do assembly line work and the like, not that I think there's anything wrong with it but surely those who are willing to do it deserve adequate compensation?

    And isn't it a natural progression that if you are at the same company for many years, you will get to a point where with benefits and all you expect to make 20-30 dollars an hour? Sure we can pay the 'grunts' in the auto industry sub level wages but then that opens up a whole can of worms as the industry looks to hire workers of questionable background and whatnot (as the meat and agricultural industry have shown).

    Which also does bring up the point, if the wages of workers in a private corporation are 'too high,' and the industry is in danger of failing, why does that company or industry need a bailout from the government? Yes I understand tons of jobs are in danger but if my industry and company goes under since it is not an auto company no way in heck will we get a bailout or help from the government. And believe me in my industry they are laying people off left and right and no one's looking for a handout.

    (By the way I do own a Ford vehicle).

  2. #17
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    I've always been curious to know just how much of the labor component constitutes the cost of an American or foreign car.

    People keep saying that American cars are getting killed, competitively speaking, by the union wage costs driving up the car's total cost, but just how much is that, comparatively speaking? There are a lot of inexpensive American cars out there -- cheaper than foreign cars. So, how does the cost component of a union worker actually negatively impact that?

    One issue that I think American cars take a big hit on is quality. Even though it has improved, if you look at a Consumer Reports review of cars, Honda and Toyota cars look excellent across the board -- while American cars seem to get middling quality scores at best.

    Because a car is a big freaking investment, quality is not a minor issue. An American (Deming) taught the Japanese about quality. What happened that we still lag in this area?

  3. #18
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celeb_2006 View Post
    This brings up an interesting point. I don't know, it may be 'unskilled labor' in terms of not requiring advanced degrees and specialized schooling/training, but it is still a hard job to do. I wouldn't want to do assembly line work and the like, not that I think there's anything wrong with it but surely those who are willing to do it deserve adequate compensation?

    And isn't it a natural progression that if you are at the same company for many years, you will get to a point where with benefits and all you expect to make 20-30 dollars an hour? Sure we can pay the 'grunts' in the auto industry sub level wages but then that opens up a whole can of worms as the industry looks to hire workers of questionable background and whatnot (as the meat and agricultural industry have shown).

    Which also does bring up the point, if the wages of workers in a private corporation are 'too high,' and the industry is in danger of failing, why does that company or industry need a bailout from the government? Yes I understand tons of jobs are in danger but if my industry and company goes under since it is not an auto company no way in heck will we get a bailout or help from the government. And believe me in my industry they are laying people off left and right and no one's looking for a handout.

    (By the way I do own a Ford vehicle).
    (I own a Ford vehicle. It is the best car I have had the pleasure of owning. I grew up surrounded by gearheads and even worked in the auto industry. I still love Fords. For trucks, I prefer Chevy or Dodge.)

    There were several assembly sites in this area pre-2005. No one began at those companies in the double digits. While I would not want to do that work, and I do understand it is physically demanding, that is still no reason to pay above what it is worth. There are many jobs which are physically, and emotionally, stressful. I'm sure teachers, police officers, firefighters, waitresses, etc. would agree. How many of them, some of whom had to obtain degrees, are earning thirty dollars per hour?

    I can't agree that starting wages for anyone in any unskilled position should be fifteen or twenty dollars. Secondly, those UAW quoted earnings were not just people who had worked in the industry for several decades. Someone earning thirty dollars per hour after thirty years isn't a problem. Someone who may not even have post high school education and five years on the job earning twenty-five dollars per hour definitely is.

    I don't agree with the bailout method. If these industries want the money, they should be loaned, or turn over control, since they can't handle the responsibility.

    If America loses the auto industry, that is another foreign commodity the country is now dependent upon.



  4. #19
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    From what I read of all the great fuel efficient ford models sold in europe and asia, if they tried to bring them here the added costs would come out to an extra 2 or 3 grand per vehicle.. and that's why those models aren't sold in north america.
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  5. #20
    Elite Member B.C.'s Avatar
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    I don't agree with the bailout method. If these industries want the money, they should be loaned, or turn over control, since they can't handle the responsibility.
    If America loses the auto industry, that is another foreign commodity the country is now dependent upon.
    Not sure from this statement if you realize the "bailout" is a loan.
    The industry supports, in one way or another, one in every 10 jobs in the nation.

  6. #21
    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    One issue that I think American cars take a big hit on is quality. Even though it has improved, if you look at a Consumer Reports review of cars, Honda and Toyota cars look excellent across the board -- while American cars seem to get middling quality scores at best.

    Yep, but they never want to own up to that being the reason. Your cars cost too much, aren't as fuel efficient, and break down more often. Yet you still think people should buy from you instead of an Asian automaker. That is the worst kind of entitlement.
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  7. #22
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.C. View Post
    Not sure from this statement if you realize the "bailout" is a loan.
    The industry supports, in one way or another, one in every 10 jobs in the nation.
    The companies in the auto industry are approaching the government with a request for money in the form of a loan, but at this point, I see it as a grant, and will, until they prove otherwise. Even if the companies go into the green, their past history of greed and financial mismanagement does not lead me to believe they would be above asking for loan forgiveness or trying another tactic to weasel out of the debt.

    Even worse, if the same people are left in charge, how can anyone think they will avoid the past errors and resist temptation?

    If an idiot, who has proven money burns holes in his pockets is loaned anything, consider it a gift unless it is repaid. Then consider it a nice surprise.



  8. #23
    Elite Member celeb_2006's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    The companies in the auto industry are approaching the government with a request for money in the form of a loan, but at this point, I see it as a grant, and will, until they prove otherwise. Even if the companies go into the green, their past history of greed and financial mismanagement does not lead me to believe they would be above asking for loan forgiveness or trying another tactic to weasel out of the debt.

    Even worse, if the same people are left in charge, how can anyone think they will avoid the past errors and resist temptation?

    If an idiot, who has proven money burns holes in his pockets is loaned anything, consider it a gift unless it is repaid. Then consider it a nice surprise.
    I agree, you'd figure that this industry, which seemed to rise out of the ashes when it was in the doldrums back in the 80's and 90's, would have learned their lessons. But they seem to keep repeating the same mistakes again and again. And I do agree that it doesn't make sense to pay someone such a huge hourly sum right out of high school or without years and years of seniority.

  9. #24
    Elite Member B.C.'s Avatar
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    This thread started me thinking about some of the jobs I've done/seen/heard about in the industry. I remember when I had air conditioning put in my house. I was at work all day in a good 120 degree heat and wasn't able to sleep at night because of the heat. One of the jobs at the plant involved using a pair of pliers to grab a steel rod that had been heated to red hot to be made into a coil spring. Protective clothing is mandatory. Welders jackets, boots, coveralls, the works. We made the stabilizer bars and the coil springs. Both were heated to red hot in order to be formed. Ovens all around for the different heat treatments that were need. Workers handling the red hot bars and rods to be bent, no automation. All the while breathing toxic fumes. Someone said once we could build a sway bar out of the junk we got out of our noses everyday. Metal particles floating in the air up our noses, faces covered in black film, clothing catching on fire. Sweating out of every orifice possible. lol

    I think about the welders in all their protective gear. The toxins in the guts of the catalytic converters we built. The toxins in the coolant solutions used in the machining operations. The fumes the painters breath in everyday all while wearing protective clothing with no air-conditioning in a hot f-in factory. The workers in the pit at assembly plants working with their arms above their heads all day. The ones putting the wheels on in an assembly plants. Fingers cut off, bones broken. I could go on....mind you I'm not complaining, I've made a good living at it.

    The UAW came about for a reason. The wages came about for a reason. Does the UAW's make to much money? Who am I to say. I work in the industry and I'm probably not going to give a bias opinion. Most of the foreign companies are paying just a few dollars less per hour than the American companies to keep the union out from what I've read. I'm surprised Kia is paying such a low wage (in comparision to the other companies). BTW new hires in the plants now make around $15. Not that there are many new hires, mostly their hiring to help until seniority employees can be moved into other plants and helping with plants that are closing.
    Last edited by B.C.; December 2nd, 2008 at 08:39 PM.

  10. #25
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celeb_2006 View Post
    I agree, you'd figure that this industry, which seemed to rise out of the ashes when it was in the doldrums back in the 80's and 90's, would have learned their lessons. But they seem to keep repeating the same mistakes again and again. And I do agree that it doesn't make sense to pay someone such a huge hourly sum right out of high school or without years and years of seniority.
    What I have read has incensed me and reinforced my belief the auto industry is run by vultures and morons. GM states it is going to focus on Chevy, GMC, Cadillac, and Buick. Buick? When I read that, I had to question just how moronic the bigwigs are. Buick should have been discontinued a long time ago. It is terrible and has been for over a decade.

    Ford and GM have fourteen billion dollars in combined payments due to a UAW trust fund at the beginning of the year. Chrysler does not have to share its accounting information because it is a private company. Really? Since it is private, it shouldn't get public aid.

    This is the biggest clusterf*ck in industrial history.

    As for the conditions found in auto plants, I am sure they are just this side of unbearable. Cleaning other people's toilets, hauling guests' bags, and walking from one end of a restaurant to another while dealing with bitchy people for 12 hours, and protecting people who would rather beat you than shake your, are all dreadful situations. When maids, bellhops, waitresses, and cops are all paid a base hourly wage of fifteen dollars or more, then I might see reasoning, other than greed, behind the UAW's decades of raising the bar.

    In Canton, MS the average worker at the Nissan plant makes about twelve dollars an hour.
    Last edited by RevellingInSane; December 2nd, 2008 at 10:14 PM.



  11. #26
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    ^^Buick is GM's product for old, middle class people.

  12. #27
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    ^^Apparently not enough old middle class people like it, since sales dipped under 200K. Old people will have to find something else to drive. I won't point out that some dangerous older drivers shouldn't be behind the wheel. Ahem.

    Not profitable? Cut it.



  13. #28
    Elite Member Str8_uncut-jock's Avatar
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    ^dang, you draw a hard line...but I like it! Someone needs to be saying these things to the people making decisions about the industry! I agree... Buick is dead...has been for over a decade. That is a waste of money....no question about it.

    Chevy should focus on trucks for the commercial industry and smaller, fuel efficient cars that are reasonably priced with exceptional warranties! Cadillac could make a comeback...but it too is a long shot.

  14. #29
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Saturn has never made a profit.
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  15. #30
    Elite Member Str8_uncut-jock's Avatar
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    ^cut it lose!

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