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Thread: Mormons vs Gays due to California Prop. 8

  1. #16
    Elite Member Beeyotch's Avatar
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    ^^I am thinking it was a combination of factors. The misleading ads about teaching kindergarteners about gay marriage and other falsities in other Yes on 8 ads were plentiful. And using children, as in Shinola's example, to play on fears or pull on heartstrings in order to pass discriminatory legislation seems so dirty.

    Also, you commented that the No on 8 (pro-gay marriage) side raised more money than the Yes on 8 groups. From what I've put together, they raised most of that money way too late in the campaign, like in the last 2-3 weeks. I think it was too little, too late.

    Before that, the Yes on 8 groups were way ahead in fundraising, and they were simply more organized. I saw way more Yes on 8 TV ads than not. I even got a robo-call from them on my CELL phone (I have no land-line) using a recording of Obama saying "I think traditional marriage should be between one man and one woman." They cleverly played on people's fears and used whatever they could to smear the opposition, namely that one ad that obnoxiously repeated a clip of San Fran Mayor Gavin Newsom (who has long issued same-sex marriage licenses) saying "Gay marriage is here, whether they like it or not." I do believe those ads persuaded people to vote Yes.

    Another thing, the importance and excitement surrounding the presidential election leached support away from this issue. People who might have been canvassing for this cause were instead canvassing in other states for Obama.

    All that effort, organization and heavy fundraising early in the game--in addition to the religious and cultural propensity of blacks and minorities (and, well, the general population too) to be homophobic--is what passed this prop, imo.

  2. #17
    Silver Member Hummus's Avatar
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    Well I think it was a matter that was voted on. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out the way a lot of people wanted it to.
    But to try and place the blame on Mormons or minorities is wrong. A lot of people voted. It just didn't turn out the way that a lot of others wanted it to.

    Are all of these people Mormon? Are ALL of these people minorities? Are all of these people white?

    Election Results - November 4, 2008 - California Secretary of State

    I don't think so. It was many people voting, from more than one religion, more than one ethnic background.

    For the record. I am not Mormon. I am not gay. I am also not anti-gay.

    Sorry for your loss guys.

  3. #18
    Elite Member celeb_2006's Avatar
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    I agree with many of your points Beeyotch, which is why singling out the mormon church (which is what I think is happening here) doesn't really do much.

    Yes things could have been done better in terms of financing and planning, but in my opinion those who voted yes already had anti gay viewpoints so regardless of commercials and whatnot they still would have voted for it. I can't imagine that there would be too many people on the fence over this issue that would have made a difference in the outcome of this proposition 8 vote.

  4. #19
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celeb_2006 View Post
    why singling out the mormon church (which is what I think is happening here) doesn't really do much.
    This is the rationale on one of the protest/action sites:
    We must clarify our tax law to prohibit this behavior.
    The United Kingdom has taken preliminary steps to strip the church of its tax-exempt status.

    Through Prop 8, the Mormon Church has shown its true colors as a political group with specific social ends. Political speech is fair and legal here; such speech under the guise of religion is not. The playing field must be leveled. Though many religious groups were involved in Prop 8, the Mormon Church made this a far more substantial part of its activities than any other.

    Californians will vote on future propositions to correct this flawed amendment next year, and every year, until we achieve our rights under the state constitution. We must be assured that our advocacy organizations are on an equal legal and financial playing field as those of our opponents.

    Ultimately all religious groups are subject to the same laws - Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc. The Mormon church, however, has shown itself to be most egregious in pressing a political agenda while registered as a church. We are starting with the biggest to effect the most change.

    Mormons Stole Our Rights: No Tax Exemption for Political Churches

  5. #20
    Gold Member ymeman's Avatar
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    wow, this is interesting, I'm reading on this site that is allowing people to post letters of resignation from the church and here is a quote from Brigham Young:

    “You may inquire of the intelligent of the world whether they can tell why the aborigines of this country are dark, loathsome, ignorant, and sunken into the depths of degradation …When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break his covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:336)


    “That negro race, for instance, have been placed under restrictions because of their attitude in the world of spirits, few will doubt. It cannot be looked upon as just that they should be deprived of the power of the Priesthood without it being a punishment for some act, or acts, performed before they were born.” Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, page 43.

    Signing for Something » Andee Duncan, Providence, Utah - My Resignation Letter

    amazing...I don't know a whole lot about this religion besides having read "Shot to the Heart" and learning bout Blood Atonement and what I know about polygamy but wow...

  6. #21
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    ^Oh yeah, the Mormons wouldn't allow black men to become priests until there was a lawsuit--I think in the 70s--and then suddenly the Mormon president had a revelation from God and non-white men were allowed to become priests. Coincidence? I think not...

  7. #22
    Elite Member Aella's Avatar
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    I still can't get over the fact the Mormons are recognised as a religion. They're a crazy cult if ever I saw one.
    "Remember to always be yourself. Unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

    "The only thing more expensive than education is ignorance." -Benjamin Franklin

  8. #23
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    Pretty ironic the Mormons want marriage to be between a man and a woman, when for most of their history it was between a man and 10 women.

  9. #24
    Elite Member Sweetie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celeb_2006 View Post
    Am I the only one that thinks that these protests don't have the meaning they should have?

    By that I mean, yes I don't fault people for protesting or marching in front of the mormon church as they did fund a significant amount of money. But the anti prop 8 side raised more money.

    And my biggest problem is that not every person that voted for prop. 8 were mormons or were particularly influenced by their prop 8 campaign. If anything I'd say that most who voted yes would have done so regardless of what the mormon church said or did, as more people have anti gay sentiments and agendas than I'd feel comfortable acknowledging. It's not like the mormons or other religious nutcases held a gun to these people's heads and forced them to vote yes.

    I think this is more venting of frustration and anger at an obvious target, but it doesn't address the more uncomfortable reality about the actual people that voted yes for prop. 8.
    I agree, but they have to have someone to blame.

  10. #25
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    The mormon church has a long history of funding anti-gay legislation all over the world.. hell, they're even up in alaska where they pretty much funded an entire anti-gay ballot.

    More light is being shed on their assholery, so yeah.. they become a target.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  11. #26
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Default Why The LDS Attack Is Different

    11 Nov 2008 11:00 am
    Why The LDS Attack Is Different

    A reader writes:
    I believe you and the reader you quote are missing what is fundamentally different about the Mormon attacks. This was not typical church activism. The Mormon Prophet commanded that every California member give time and money to pass Prop 8. Each member was then contacted by a church authority to make sure the orders from Salt Lake City were obeyed. Mormons were organized into groups to canvas neighborhoods, knock on doors, distribute yards signs, and otherwise organize against gay marriage rights.

    Sounds like standard civic participation, right? But remember, Mormons are not allowed to dissent.
    Those who openly speak disagreement with the church's orthodoxy are routinely excommunicated (you can easily Google public examples, most are secret). There are reports on public websites that Mormon Bishops even questioned individual’s actions supporting Prop 8 in “Temple Interviews,” a form of confessional where members validate that they are living up to the highest church standards.

    Questioning support for Prop 8 in such a setting is an implicit threat to the individual’s church membership and continuation as a member of Mormon society. Deliberately complicating matters for outside observers, church members were ordered to disguise their actions. Official church orders told them to disguise their Mormon identity, not go in pairs, and not to wear white shirts and ties.

    As the campaign escalated, the church broadened its call to members, drawing in activists and money from around the country. So although Mormons are less than 2% of the California population's, several gay websites claim that over 70% of the private money donated in support of Prop 8 was Mormon. Yes, some Mormon individuals stood up against their church. Of the 13+ million Mormons, about 300 signed an online petition. A Mormon ex-football player’s wife put out a supportive statement. He didn’t join it.

    The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan (November 11, 2008) - Why The LDS Attack Is Different

  12. #27
    Elite Member WesCAdle's Avatar
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    Why does this response have trackbacks pinged onto it and what are they? Anyway IMO Grimm is correct in asserting the mormons use large financial resources to adjust ideology against their tenets and beliefs such as the scary ads and robocalls. Why I don't understand.
    as privileged as a whore...victims in demand for public show, swept out through the cracks beneath the door, holier than thou, how?

  13. #28
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    More evidence against the Mormon church:
    Leaked LDS Prop 8 Memo: “The work depends on us”

    11 November 2008
    Recently, a page of lnternal LDS Notes on Prop 8 was released on the Internet. In the first paragraph,
    Elders Ballard, Christopherson [sic] & Clayton met last week with leaders of the Coalition for 2 hours. The brethren emphasized that there wasn’t much participation from non-LDS people. The work depends on us.
    Elders Ballard and Christofferson are members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, second only to the First Presidency in LDS Church hierarchy; Elder Clayton is a member of the Presidency of the Seventy. These words are unequivocal: “there wasn’t much participation from non-LDS people.”

    In addition to providing about half of the funding for ProtectMarriage.org, this memo makes clear that the LDS Church understood that its members were primarily responsible for the corresponding volunteer effort. Moreover, Church officials at the highest levels were involved in organizing this volunteer effort.

    Why are people singling out the LDS Church? Because they were singular in their support for Prop 8.

    Why does this have anything to do with tax-exempt status? Because the IRS considers volunteer effort when determining whether an organization meets the “no substantial part” test.

  14. #29
    Gold Member Corsair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymeman View Post
    wow, this is interesting, I'm reading on this site that is allowing people to post letters of resignation from the church and here is a quote from Brigham Young:

    “You may inquire of the intelligent of the world whether they can tell why the aborigines of this country are dark, loathsome, ignorant, and sunken into the depths of degradation …When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break his covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:336)


    “That negro race, for instance, have been placed under restrictions because of their attitude in the world of spirits, few will doubt. It cannot be looked upon as just that they should be deprived of the power of the Priesthood without it being a punishment for some act, or acts, performed before they were born.” Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, page 43.

    Signing for Something » Andee Duncan, Providence, Utah - My Resignation Letter

    amazing...I don't know a whole lot about this religion besides having read "Shot to the Heart" and learning bout Blood Atonement and what I know about polygamy but wow...
    re: bolded. Older versions of the Book of Mormon actually said that; newer ones have been changed. (4th generation (ex)mormon and my great grandaddy was a polygamist). This is a super hot topic for me as I am still fighting it. I do agree, the Mormons are not the only group that showed incredible intolerance and bigotry. But they are definitely well funded, outspoken and well organized. And political as hell.
    Don't worry about what other people think. They don't do it very often.

  15. #30
    Elite Member ana-mish-ana's Avatar
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    Personally - this shows that religion shouldnt interfere into civil matters or the laws of the land. Fair enough if they want to preach backwards bigotry its their prerogative but to use their influence or money to fund something that doesnt really concern them directly then they should be prosecuted or punished or fuck just tax them (they are breaking their tax free status anyway)- cant have it both ways.

    But they are forcing their beliefs onto others who dont share them and that should be stopped. I just hope these protests dont get violent - it will just hand ammo to these fucktards.

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