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Thread: Live US Election 2012 Thread

  1. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by HWBL View Post
    Score one (at last) for the Election Integrity movement!
    Late last night, after Obama took Ohio, Karl Rove was on Fox News, doggedly refusing to concede. He insisted that Ohio was still in play, as Romney was going to win in Hamilton County—where the votes were “counted” on machines made and maintained by Hart InterCivic, a company effectively controlled by Romney’s family. (The same machines were also used in Williams County.)
    So it’s not surprising that the GOP’s Lord Voldemort foresaw an “upset victory” in that county. It is surprising that he said it on Fox News, and when the game was obviously lost, so that a sudden Romney “victory” in Ohio would have seemed especially suspicious—even in the eyes of Rove’s old allies on Fox News (or those not in the loop).
    To those of us with vivid memories of Election Nights 2000 and 2004, it was a creepy moment—and things got even creepier when Brad Friedman reported that the website of the Ohio SoS had suddenly gone down, which had also happened at that very hour eight years before; and when it had come back on, Kerry, who had been ahead, was now behind. And—horribly—the rest was history.
    But that didn’t happen this time, as Rove had obviously lost control—of himself (his recklessness in mouthing off like that was staggering), and, infinitely more important, of his well-oiled, fabulously subsidized election-theft machine. For all his plans, and all the preparations made by Ohio SoS Jon Husted (among others), Rove was clearly overruled on this Election Day, as cooler heads prevailed.
    The fact is that, this time, yet another late-night “upset victory” would have been too risky—for the US press had finally done its job, enough to make a lot of people conscious of what’s happened to our voting system, and, therefore,of what could happen to let Romney “win.”
    The honor roll includes, among many others, Harper’s (for publishing Victoria Collier’s brilliant overview), the Atlantic, Esquire, the Christian Science Monitor, Forbes (which came out with a killer piece about Ohio’s voting system early on Election Day), Huffington Post, and even DailyKos (which had been fervently denialist since 2004).
    This time, such organs, and others, played up news that most of them would once have buried or ignored—especially the news of what was happening in Ohio, broken by Gerry Bello and Bob Fitrakis in the Columbus Free Press, and carried even by such unlikely outlets as Fox 19 in Cincinnati.
    In short, our work online was finally resonating through the mainstream press—not the New York Times or CNN, of course, but others numerous and respectable enough to give some traction to the questions we’ve been raising for so many years. Thus the old smear of “conspiracy theory” finally sounded not like common sense but like the mere ad hominem evasion that it’s really always been; and so those few who used that smear this time were shot to pieces for it.
    When NBC’s Chuck Todd compared concerns about e-voting to “birther garbage,” Brad Friedman cleaned his clock, with a devastating catalogue of proven instances of fraud that didn’t just expose the ignorance of NBC’s so-called “elections expert,” but which can now be used by anyone who wants to fight for fair elections.
    And, as usual, that tired old slur came not just from the corporate media but, even louder, from the left—ThinkProgress and Alternet both coming out with marvelously stupid pieces whose effect, potentially, is so destructive that Karl Rove himself might just as well have written them. (In its error-riddled item calling the Hart InterCivic story “FALSE,” Snopes.com used Alternet as a source.) And yet the dozens of smart, angry comments posted in response to those outrageous screeds make clear that leftist pundits can no longer get away with laughing off this all-important fight for real elections in America.
    It’s time to put an end to such complacent jeering; because people need to know—and want to know—what’s happened here, and what they can do about it. That growing public interest is the reason why our work has finally broken through, with Brad, Victoria, Bob, Gerry and Harvey Wasserman, Jonathan Simon, Sally Castleman, Richard Charnin, Michael Collins, Greg Palast, Bev Harris, John Ennis, Sheila Parks, Paul Lehto, Marta Steele and so many others (and please do forgive me if I didn’t name you here—I’m really tired!) finally seeing, if not their names in lights, their vital findings resonating through the public sphere. In my own case, that broad public interest recently came home to me when my half-hour interview with Heather Wokusch on MNN (NYC’s public access channel) instantly went viral up on YouTube, getting over 80,000 hits in just four days.
    And it’s because our work has reached so many people that it’s not just we ourselves who spread the word, but countless others who aren’t activists. As Rove and his confederates mulled their options yesterday, who knows how much they fretted over that explosive bit of video posted by “centralpavoter,” showing that an ES&S iVotronic e-voting machine had repeatedly flipped his Obama vote to Romney? (The Raleigh Telegram reported that the same thing was happening on machines in North Carolina.) The fact that it went viral—vividly disproving the GOP’s propaganda claimsthat Democrats were somehow flipping Romney votes—had to help decide them not to rip off this election after all.
    So while this day after is a thrilling time for Democrats, it is a moment of rare triumph for those fighting for legitimate elections in America. We’re feeling this elation not because Barack Obama won, but because we’ve helped prevent the right from pulling off another “win” despite the will of the electorate. And—despite that Democratic sweep—we will keep up this fight to realize American democracy itself, which must be saved not only from Karl Rove, the Kochs and Sheldon Adelson, but from the long joint grip of both the parties, and the money flooding through them.
    MCM [Mark Crispin Miller]
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  2. #512
    Elite Member greysfang's Avatar
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    That was do poorly written, it was hard to find the point.
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  3. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysfang View Post
    That was do poorly written, it was hard to find the point.
    Yeah, agreed. The links are worth the price of the article.

  4. #514
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    To have voted for Obama THIS time would have been to knowingly vote for certain economic and foreign policies I vehemently oppose. People who voted for Obama for idealistic reasons, without understanding some of the repulsive actions he has taken in their names, can be justified in their votes to a certain extent. [but not for their willful ignorance] But those who voted for him because he was the 'lesser of two evils', knowing the heinous shit he has already done in their names, are the ones who should be ashamed imo.
    Sorry, but the other guy was promising to do even MORE heinous shit, like spend even more on the military and get us into a third war (with Iran). And if that war goes like the other ones, my son will be draft age before we give up on it. Fuck that. Now, Bibi Netanyahu, Romney's close friend and former coworker, will have to ratchet down the rhetoric a little and maybe not start World War III with our blessing.
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  5. #515
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    A draft?? How horrible for our kids.

    Cause american kids are the only ones that matter. Pay no mind to the ones that we kill on a regular basis.



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    Quote Originally Posted by CornFlakegrl View Post
    I think that's why "certain" religions are rejected by voters. Identify as a christian, catholic, mormon, whatever and I don't much care as long as you don't expect me to do the same, and you aren't hellbent on legislating your particular morality.
    I never vote for anyone who identifies as their religion for political gain, no patience for that shit. Never a Mormon or a Muslim or an Evangelical. Their first order of business seems to be the humbling of women and denial of our status as an adjunct of sacred law.

    Since Catholicism has such a broad range of adherents (from Paul Ryan to Stephan Colbert), I'm more inclined to listen to their full positions before making a judgement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterslide View Post
    I don't think I've ever seen a white-shirt-wearing, door-to-door Mormon in my life which is maybe why I'm in a bubble about their proselytizing tactics. Mormons I've known never tried to shove their beliefs down my throat and they've all been nice to me.
    My parents hired some Mormon babysitters for us when they went on vacation once. So I've been inside a Mormon temple and seen their services. I guess because we were just kids, they let us in. Frankly, it was a blast hanging out with them all weekend - everything is family oriented and everyone was busy in such a positive way. I can see the attraction.

    I've been approached by white shirts and always talk to them. They are always so relieved that someone isn't rebuffing them. We have a nice visit. I don't argue or challenge them, just say I'm very happy with my own (non)beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeSlice View Post
    You do not know the sigh of relief I had when NC wasn't on the top ten list of worst educated states. And dammit we were close to being blue the other night.
    Romney threw a ton of money at NC, some think because he believed Obama losing the DNC state would be particularly embarrassing. Word is that we in NC received a chunk of those machines that switch votes. That really needs to be investigated further. Perhaps next time, Dems should encourage people to record their votes on their phones?

    I worked the polls this week. It was a lot of fun, only had a couple encounters with crazies and a few Republican ladies-who-lunch who glared at us like we carried disease. I had great conversations with almost everyone, Dem or Rep. At one precinct, it was so cold all the pollsters and reps started dancing and singing together while voters ran our gauntlet.

    On the other hand, the past two days I've experienced a lot of ugliness and bitterness in reaction to any positive expressions on my part.
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  7. #517
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    A draft?? How horrible for our kids.

    Cause american kids are the only ones that matter. Pay no mind to the ones that we kill on a regular basis.
    American kids are a higher priority to me than anyone else's. And we should not be killing anyone else's either. Killing Iranian kids in addition to all the other ones would not be a net improvement. And that's what you would have gotten if enough people on the left threw their votes at third-party candidates.
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  8. #518
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Really? Voting 3rd party would automatically lead to a war with Iraq? I think you're reaching there.

    I see the rights of all children to be alive as equal, regardless of which country they reside in.

    I chose my vote carefully. You did the same I'm sure. But don't sit here and shit all over people who chose differently than you. They probably put as much thought into their votes as you did into yours.



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  9. #519
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    I think it would be inaccurate to say that I shit all over people who chose differently than me. I was responding to someone mentioning the heinous shit that is being done under Obama's administration. Make no mistake that the heinous shit supply would have seen a dramatic boost in production under Romney and one of the most frequent criticisms of Obama by Romney supporters was that Obama wasn't a) supporting bellicose Bibi enough, and b) being unilateral enough in his foreign policy.

    And yes, a Romney win would have emboldened Netanyahu to take us even closer to the precipice of a war with Iran.

    As to third-party candidates. In 2000, Ralph Nader (Green party/third party) got 2.75% of the general election votes. That was more than margin of victory (1%) between George W Bush (Iraq War, Afghan War) and Al Gore. Did Ralph Nader siphon those votes from likely Gore voters? It's difficult to say, but on the political spectrum they certainly were more likely to vote for Gore than Bush. And in retrospect, would those voters have thrown their votes to Gore over Bush, knowing what happened later? Probably.
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  10. #520
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    You have no idea how those people would have voted, or if they would have even voted at all without the option of voting for Nader. It's sheer speculation. Since 2000 there has always been this sense amongst dems that Gore was entitled to the Nader votes. He wasn't.

    There is also no guarantee that Romney being elected would automatically mean war with Iraq, or that having Obama in office won't. Again, speculation.

    And while Romney would likely continue to do the same things that Obama is doing, that doesn't make Obama's doing them OK. And some people chose not to give their votes to anyone who is on board with those policies, so they voted 3rd party.



    All of God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.


    If I wanted the government in my womb I'd fuck a Senator

  11. #521
    Elite Member Waterslide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    Sorry I'm late to this discussion and forgive me if I'm repeating anything, but I voted for Nader in 2000 just as I voted for J. Stein this cycle. I will NEVER apologize for that vote, even though I knew it wouldn't make a spit of difference here, because I voted FOR Nader's ideals and his plan. For me, to vote for either of the major party candidates would have been a cynical betrayal of my own beliefs.
    I voted for Obama last time but I had severe trepidations. I did it because my family and most of my friends were so excited about him that I got swept up in it. I liked what he was saying but I greatly feared, but didn't exactly know, that he he didn't mean any of it. Turns out my fears were confirmed.

    To have voted for Obama THIS time would have been to knowingly vote for certain economic and foreign policies I vehemently oppose. People who voted for Obama for idealistic reasons, without understanding some of the repulsive actions he has taken in their names, can be justified in their votes to a certain extent. [but not for their willful ignorance] But those who voted for him because he was the 'lesser of two evils', knowing the heinous shit he has already done in their names, are the ones who should be ashamed imo.
    I understand what you're saying, but I don't normally think people who disagree with me should be ashamed of themselves for making up their own minds. For me, at this point in history, it's what I'm willing to live with on my conscience - I can't believe I would be able to have a perfectly clean one in this country or anywhere else in the world. I've experienced voter's regret in the past, but I have never yet been swept away by another person's opinions, whether it be my family, or the mob mentality of the entire planet that jumped on the Obama bandwagon in '08.

    Quote Originally Posted by faithanne View Post
    I hate it when people assume I'm a preachy vegetarian when I say NOTHING to anyone about their food and it's always them asking me about my food because it always looks and smells so awesome, then after quizzing me about everything I eat and why I became vego they turn it around and accuse me of preaching. Fuck off, I was trying to eat my lunch in peace.
    That is amazingly fucked up. I think it's that people ask and then secretly want to convert you back to meat like them and when you don't do it, suddenly you're preachy. I don't know why people have to micromanage other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadDwarf View Post
    I think vegetarians in general aren't preachy, most of them you don't even know are vegetarians unless it somehow comes up (like a lot people are about their religious beliefs) My BFF is a vegetarian, but it's mainly for health reasons and she doesn't care if I eat meat in front of her. She's not like a Peta member or anything. Haha
    I've mostly known the PETA-member variety of vegetarians and vegans. I've only known a few who've chosen it for health reasons, but most of the vegans I've met will tell you health is an added benefit even with a needle hanging out of their arm. I've also known civilized vegetarians who aren't preachy, love to eat and when confronted with a menu full of meat, find something and don't bat an eye and I barely even remember they're vegetarians unless I'm cooking for them.

    Like sput mentioned, I agree about voting for the lesser evil (and that the US is a centrist country). I would love it one day if I could vote for who I like and respect, but that hasn't happened in years. I'm sick to death of the 2-party system, I wish we as "the people" would dump all of it and start over. Sometimes the candidates are so repugnant, in my heart, I have to vote against one over the other and pray for the best. I understand ideally you should vote for a candidate whose views you support, but I can't personally bring myself to "throw the vote away" as they say.
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  12. #522
    Elite Member MohandasKGanja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    You have no idea how those people would have voted, or if they would have even voted at all without the option of voting for Nader. It's sheer speculation. Since 2000 there has always been this sense amongst dems that Gore was entitled to the Nader votes. He wasn't.

    There is also no guarantee that Romney being elected would automatically mean war with Iraq, or that having Obama in office won't. Again, speculation.

    And while Romney would likely continue to do the same things that Obama is doing, that doesn't make Obama's doing them OK. And some people chose not to give their votes to anyone who is on board with those policies, so they voted 3rd party.
    Well, Romney, being Romney (which is being someone on both sides of the political fence), it is possible that he would have turned around and shafted all the hawkish supporters who threw tons of money at him to promise that he would increase the defense budget, and that he would back Netanyahu to the hilt as Netanyahu threatens to unilaterally bomb Iran, or even get logistical support from us. Is there a discernible difference in Israel policy between Obama and Romney - almost all signs point to "yes" - that Obama pushed for more economic sanctions and more time as Netanyahu pushed for a clear line in the sand that would have obligated Israel and us to overt military acts (and Romney supported him on that).

    With regard to Nader - there are multiple people who say his participation in the 2000 general election determined who would become president. That includes Harvard professor B.C. Burden, and even the Sierra Club President Carl Pope, who said to Nader, "You have also broken your word to your followers who signed the petitions that got you on the ballot in many states. You pledged you would not campaign as a spoiler and would avoid the swing states. Your recent campaign rhetoric and campaign schedule make it clear that you have broken this pledge... Please accept that I, and the overwhelming majority of the environmental movement in this country, genuinely believe that your strategy is flawed, dangerous and reckless."

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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post

    There is also no guarantee that Romney being elected would automatically mean war with Iraq, or that having Obama in office won't. Again, speculation.

    And while Romney would likely continue to do the same things that Obama is doing, that doesn't make Obama's doing them OK. And some people chose not to give their votes to anyone who is on board with those policies, so they voted 3rd party.
    Romney and Ryan wanted to fund a bigger war machine. That is not in dispute anywhere. They both rattled sabers at Iran. Fact is, they represent a lot of military contractor donations (hence the bizarre battleship statement by Romney during the debate.) I fear that simply out of donor loyalty, Romney and Ryan would HAVE start a war to supply their friends with more government money. It's why Iraq was invaded, afterall.


    I respect third party voters. I really wish we had a more coalition government where there was none of this winner-take-all Superbowl shit. Our democracy is threatened by the sheer foolishness of its design. So how do we change that?

    When one side, in this election, was trying to subvert the process, gauge the system, align themselves with the ugliest forces for profit and power, I'm going to campaign for the other side. No, the Dems and Obama do not represent me or my issues (anyone talking about the environment lately? Nah, only when it slams us.) The Dems have NEVER been about perfect adherence to one single dogma - which is what I call their strength. But Dems at this time want to protect The Process of democracy and representative government. That's enough for me to campaign for them.
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterslide View Post
    I understand ideally you should vote for a candidate whose views you support, but I can't personally bring myself to "throw the vote away" as they say.
    And that's fine, because you have the right to make the choice. Everyone can vote as they choose, or choose not to vote at all if they so desire.

    But I fundamentally disagree with the school of thought that people are throwing their vote away if they vote outside the two main parties. Quite a few major things in the US exist today because 3rd parties made them issues, and the main parties saw that these ideas had strong support, so they co-opted them. Without people who were willing to vote 3rd party and 'throw away' votes we wouldn't have them.


    And i also disagree with the thoughts that the dems are protecting democracy. The threatening and punishing of whistle blowers - particularly those exposing war crimes - and massive eavesdropping and unconstitutional warrants to harass, detain and search the property of citizens doing nothing illegal, the 'disposition matrix', detention without charge, this is our current reality. Along with unregulated fracking and growth of poisonous, GMO roundup crops, poisonous factory farming, and a still unregulated Wall Street, just to name a few. This isn't the Democratic party I knew, but a heightening of the Bush agenda using Obama as a front for the continued advance of militant global corporatism with a likeable frontman as President to help make the raping and pillaging more palatable.
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    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    To have voted for Obama THIS time would have been to knowingly vote for certain economic and foreign policies I vehemently oppose. People who voted for Obama for idealistic reasons, without understanding some of the repulsive actions he has taken in their names, can be justified in their votes to a certain extent. [but not for their willful ignorance] But those who voted for him because he was the 'lesser of two evils', knowing the heinous shit he has already done in their names, are the ones who should be ashamed imo.
    I doubt it was your intention, but your words come across as very judgemental. Show me one President who has not committed heinous shit in our names. There are none. Each President has done something that some group finds to be henious. No one has asked you to apologize for any of your votes. IMO no one should be told they should be ashamed for how they voted either.
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