Learning from multiple abortions

[Lobelia]

Originally Posted by crumpet

I'm in favor of abortion on demand, without apology. Is it irresponsible to have multiple abortions or to repeatedly not use contraception when you know you don't want a baby? Maybe, but what do I care? Since I think it's a private decision it makes no difference to me if some other woman has 1 or 101 abortions. If she wants to use that expensive and invasive form of birth control, how does that affect me or anybody else? In fact, I'm much more likely to be adversely impacted by the aftermath of unwanted and unproperly raised children polluting my community. No matter how one feels about abortion, there is NO WAY to 'save' an unwanted fetus without imposing your will on a living, breathing woman, so her rights to autonomy trump any perceived rights of the potential person 'living' off of her body. Women don't become property of the state just because they get knocked up, although many less enlightened people would have you beleive that they should. What really galls me are the idiots who say that they think it's murder but then go on to say it should be legal in case of rape/incest, or that people should be allowed 'one' mistake only. Fuck, if it is murder, why would you allow it in any case? I mean, do we all get one free pass at murder before the law kicks in? If a rape victim gives birth can she then kill it? Those people are admitting right there that abortion is not real murder, because if they really thought it was, why would they make any allowances for it? They just don't want to come out and admit that even they don't really believe it's the same thing.
edited to add:Frankly , the whole 'judgement about the number of abortions a woman has had' spiel is really just a smokescreen for the sexual double standards that this puritanical society holds towards women who have sex a lot. Pregnancy/abortions merely act as evidence that someone has had sex, whereas there is no comparable 'evidence' for men. yeah, a man may have a lot of kids, but you can't tell that when he's walking down the street or from reviewing his medical history.

This is an extremely interesting & provocative post. I've thought the same thing, about how people say it's murder, but it's ok here or there. Or the reverse - that it's NOT murder, but it's bad, and you shouldn't do it, or at most only once.

I am admittedly a hypocrite, myself, so your post struck me. I believe that abortion is the killing of human life, yet I can't bring myself to demand that it be illegal. I guess I just think that some things are worse than death, but then again, who is to say? Many people are born into terrible, adverse circumstances but ultimately live happy lives. I don't suppose that I'll ever stop second-guessing myself on this topic.

For years, I have worked with children born into poverty, drugs, mental illness, abuse, dysfunction, neglect... It's awful to say this, but I'm to the point of saying that many of them are unsaveable, at least by any means that I'm aware of. So many are retarded, mentally ill and/or delinquent, & they clog up the legal system, disrupt the school system, threaten & harm other kids, damage property, suck up millions in welfare & medicaid dollars.... Am I saying that they shouldn't have been born? Well, no, that's not for me to say, but I'm human & I've had that very thought a time or 2, on occasion. Then I remind myself that retarded, mentally ill & delinquent children are sometimes born into loving, self-sufficient homes, so the circumstances of our birth do not always determine the quality of our lives.

It's all gray. There is no black & white anywhere in this mess, that I can see. I don't have any perfect, or even GOOD, answers, so I just sit here in my hypocrisy and watch.

[mistify]

oh Alice you are so bad!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Voodoo Child]

Originally Posted by AliceInWonderland

^ nah you're knocked out for that part.

unless you're one of those loons who do it w/o the anethesia; there's always 1 in the bunch.

One of my Aunties had an abortion many years ago without anethesia because they didn't use it then! She said at one stage she jumped off the bed and went outside to cry. I always cringe when she tells me. I don't know the feeling of an abortion but I am thinking it must hurt espectially not being knocked out during the procedure.

[A*O]

In the former USSR abortion was regarded as a perfectly acceptable form of birth control, especially as other means of contraception were not widely available. Going to your local clinic for a free, medically supervised abortion was as routine as having your hair done and there cerainly wasn't any social stigma attached to it, let alone moral or religious objections (maybe because religion was banned anyway).

I can't decide which is worse - an irresponsible young woman who doesn't use birth control and doesn't care anyway, gets pregnant and raises the baby(s) at the taxpayer's expense;

or an irresponsible young woman who doesn't use birth control, doesn't care, gets pregnant and uses multiple abortions as a solution.

[ediebrooks]

Originally Posted by crumpet

I'm in favor of abortion on demand, without apology. Is it irresponsible to have multiple abortions or to repeatedly not use contraception when you know you don't want a baby? Maybe, but what do I care? Since I think it's a private decision it makes no difference to me if some other woman has 1 or 101 abortions. If she wants to use that expensive and invasive form of birth control, how does that affect me or anybody else? In fact, I'm much more likely to be adversely impacted by the aftermath of unwanted and unproperly raised children polluting my community. No matter how one feels about abortion, there is NO WAY to 'save' an unwanted fetus without imposing your will on a living, breathing woman, so her rights to autonomy trump any perceived rights of the potential person 'living' off of her body. Women don't become property of the state just because they get knocked up, although many less enlightened people would have you beleive that they should. What really galls me are the idiots who say that they think it's murder but then go on to say it should be legal in case of rape/incest, or that people should be allowed 'one' mistake only. Fuck, if it is murder, why would you allow it in any case? I mean, do we all get one free pass at murder before the law kicks in? If a rape victim gives birth can she then kill it? Those people are admitting right there that abortion is not real murder, because if they really thought it was, why would they make any allowances for it? They just don't want to come out and admit that even they don't really believe it's the same thing.

By the way, I've been sexaully active for 20 years and I've never had an abortion, nor have I ever been pregnant, so one need not have been in that position to appreciate it's complexities.

edited to add:Frankly , the whole 'judgement about the number of abortions a woman has had' spiel is really just a smokescreen for the sexual double standards that this puritanical society holds towards women who have sex a lot. Pregnancy/abortions merely act as evidence that someone has had sex, whereas there is no comparable 'evidence' for men. yeah, a man may have a lot of kids, but you can't tell that when he's walking down the street or from reviewing his medical history.

It's a personal decision, allright, but it's a free country, so we're all going to have opinions. I don't make it a point of breaking the ice at parties by cheerily asking, "Oh, by the way, how many abortions have you had?", but if someone freely admitted to using abortion as a form of birth control, my opinion of them will be negative. But I will keep it to myself. Abortion should be legal to help people who are desperate and sad situations. If a woman is pregnant as the result of rape and/or incest,that is desperate and sad situation. If a woman is told that the baby she is carrying has some sort of disease or condition that would make it impossible to have a normal life, that is a desperate and a sad situation. If I had a 14-year-old daughter who told me that she was pregnant, I would set up an appointment for an abortion with no hesitation, because no 14-year-old has any business attempting motherhood.

I don't spend a lot of time worrying about the double standard, because I have no respect for women who consider sex an extracurricular activity. If they have to hop in the sack with every Tom, Dick, or Harriet who comes along, they should at least use birth control and get tested for HIV regularly. In other words, they should be responsible sluts, and not endanger the public with their repulsive behavior. ...jumps off soapbox.

[AliceInWonderland]

thanks for posting your in-depth opinion and thoughts Lobes! I could tell that was a very thoughtworthy post. Those are so nice and refreshing sometimes when it comes to the sticky topic of abortion.

[Sojiita]

Originally Posted by crumpet

I'm in favor of abortion on demand, without apology. Is it irresponsible to have multiple abortions or to repeatedly not use contraception when you know you don't want a baby? Maybe, but what do I care? Since I think it's a private decision it makes no difference to me if some other woman has 1 or 101 abortions. If she wants to use that expensive and invasive form of birth control, how does that affect me or anybody else? In fact, I'm much more likely to be adversely impacted by the aftermath of unwanted and unproperly raised children polluting my community. No matter how one feels about abortion, there is NO WAY to 'save' an unwanted fetus without imposing your will on a living, breathing woman, so her rights to autonomy trump any perceived rights of the potential person 'living' off of her body. Women don't become property of the state just because they get knocked up, although many less enlightened people would have you beleive that they should. What really galls me are the idiots who say that they think it's murder but then go on to say it should be legal in case of rape/incest, or that people should be allowed 'one' mistake only. Fuck, if it is murder, why would you allow it in any case? I mean, do we all get one free pass at murder before the law kicks in? If a rape victim gives birth can she then kill it? Those people are admitting right there that abortion is not real murder, because if they really thought it was, why would they make any allowances for it? They just don't want to come out and admit that even they don't really believe it's the same thing.

By the way, I've been sexaully active for 20 years and I've never had an abortion, nor have I ever been pregnant, so one need not have been in that position to appreciate it's complexities.

edited to add:Frankly , the whole 'judgement about the number of abortions a woman has had' spiel is really just a smokescreen for the sexual double standards that this puritanical society holds towards women who have sex a lot. Pregnancy/abortions merely act as evidence that someone has had sex, whereas there is no comparable 'evidence' for men. yeah, a man may have a lot of kids, but you can't tell that when he's walking down the street or from reviewing his medical history.

I agree with your post.

Kaiser notes that "some states -- including Colorado, Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania -- will not appropriate funds for family planning services to clinics that have a relationship with abortion providers.

^^ why am I not surprised that Ohio is on that list. Sometimes it really sucks to live here.

Originally Posted by ediebrooks

If I had a 14-year-old daughter who told me that she was pregnant, I would set up an appointment for an abortion with no hesitation, because no 14-year-old has any business attempting motherhood.

Is the 14 year old thing just a societal thing? My grandmother was married and pregnant-at 14. Had a decent life and was married for well over 50 years.

[ediebrooks]

It was just a hypothetical. I'm glad your grandma got married and pregnant at 14, and had a great life, but don't you think times have changed a lot? If I had a very young daughter come to me and tell me she was pregnant, I would certainly consider abortion as an option. But it was just a hypothetical, as I am not a mom, and situations alter cases.

[Grimmlok]

Originally Posted by Sojiita

I agree with your post.

Kaiser notes that "some states -- including Colorado, Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania -- will not appropriate funds for family planning services to clinics that have a relationship with abortion providers.

^^ why am I not surprised that Ohio is on that list. Sometimes it really sucks to live here.



Is the 14 year old thing just a societal thing? My grandmother was married and pregnant-at 14. Had a decent life and was married for well over 50 years.

omg your grandma was loose!

[Lobelia]

oh SNAP

..............

[ediebrooks]

Snap crackle pop.....

[ohmygoodness]

Kelloggs rice krispieeeeeees.

[Sojiita]

Originally Posted by Grimmlok

omg your grandma was loose!

married and then pregnant..

Originally Posted by ediebrooks

It was just a hypothetical. I'm glad your grandma got married and pregnant at 14, and had a great life, but don't you think times have changed a lot? If I had a very young daughter come to me and tell me she was pregnant, I would certainly consider abortion as an option. But it was just a hypothetical, as I am not a mom, and situations alter cases.

well I guess being married first is a different thing.. I guess I did not emphasize that enough. Hell they did not even have antibiotics when she was married(1923) and the Great Spanish flu pandemic had just killed half a million people a few years earlier. People did not live as long-they had to start early!


I don't make it a point of breaking the ice at parties by cheerily asking, "Oh, by the way, how many abortions have you had?",

I say go for it and make the parties interesting! lol

[A*O]

I don't think anyone would disagree that abortion should be the LAST resort, not the first.

[PrettyGirl]

I'm so glad that I've never had an unwanted pregnancy (or any pregnancy whatsoever for that matter) and that I've never had to contemplate an abortion. I think everyone has to do what's best for them.