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Thread: Keith Olbermann goes off on Prop 8.. you can feel the fury coming off him

  1. #121
    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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    fucking idiots - its WALK THE PLANK WITH YOU!

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by stylejunkiex View Post
    I found this video on a mormon blog.. ugh... they try to make it all Mister Rogers, easy-as-pie shit... not a complex issue implicating the rights and happiness of gays and lesbians at all..

    [youtube]vI-GjWY-WlA[/youtube]
    This is exactly what I've been talking about. The way its suggested that there are darker motivations than equal rights. It is also why its important not to talk about children being taught tolerance as if this is the issue.

    Trickle up is one of the most ridiculous terms I've ever heard. If you honestly think that what a child learns at school is going to trickle up and change their parents opinion then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you in Brooklyn. All thats going to happen is that parents are going to realize there's just one more PC thing to add to their public face. Additionally just like in real life I bet the people in the video probably never told their neighbors that they voted otherwise.

    So how about someone answer this. If you already have the same rights, then why do you want to change the definition of marriage?

  3. #123
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Well for one, the rights aren't the same from place to place.

    I have a better question: why do straights feel they need to "protect" a word from changing and including something new, when the meaning of that word has already changed a thousand times over since it was first used?

    It's the PRINCIPLE of the thing.

    Should blacks have been satisfied with just getting ON the bus, even though they were forced to sit in the back?

    Same argument.

    It's not RIGHT.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  4. #124
    Elite Member MarieAntoinette's Avatar
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    I saw that video yesterday, and I thought his speech was great. I'm so pissed off when I think of the voting result and the people who already married, and whose marriages technically would be illegal now? What kind of a sick yoyo game is that? Yes, you are allowed to, whoops, no, now you're not.

    I have a better question: why do straights feel they need to "protect" a word from changing and including something new, when the meaning of that word has already changed a thousand times over since it was first used?
    I don't get this either. People really should be more open-minded to change. I honestly don't understand why two people who want to committ to each are a threat to society and family. Why shouldn't two woman or two in a committed realtionship be regarded as family too, or be able to take care of children if they wish to do so.

    As I said , I simply don't get it. I guess I'm unable to put myself into the position of the people who voted Yes on Prop. 8. Personally I don't care for marriage at all, but do believe that everybody should have the right.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Well for one, the rights aren't the same from place to place.

    I have a better question: why do straights feel they need to "protect" a word from changing and including something new, when the meaning of that word has already changed a thousand times over since it was first used?

    It's the PRINCIPLE of the thing.

    Should blacks have been satisfied with just getting ON the bus, even though they were forced to sit in the back?

    Same argument.

    It's not RIGHT.
    I'm not sure if I agree with that. It seems like you want to say it is the same thing. But marriage in and of itself is an archaic terminology. Marriage barely means anything that stands up in the modern era. Its just tradition. So why not start your own traditions? Just wondering. And what laws and legal rights are missing? Can't you just add them to domestic partnership?

    The number one reason parents were concerned in my friends realm is that you couldn't pull your kid out of class if you didn't want them taught gay tolerance. She mentioned that a father was arrested for trying to do so, although I think it was probably because he wouldn't leave the school. But these Christians feel they are being forced to tolerate things they disagree with. But they tolerate it, like the video said, make friends, no problem. But now they feel that their rights are being imposed on and their role as a parent is being interfered with. This is no small thing, and there's really not a way around it because progress needs to happen.

    I suppose that if you could just stop the snap back accusations and the anger and consider that it might be very difficult to have this stuff forced on you if you were raised to think it was an abomination in the eyes of God and all that, and your vote would make you complicit.

    That is why this needs to be settled by the courts. I think most people who voted yes, wouldn't be upset if the court overturned that vote. They just don't want to be responsible for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarieAntoinette View Post
    I saw that video yesterday, and I thought his speech was great. I'm so pissed off when I think of the voting result and the people who already married, and whose marriages technically would be illegal now? What kind of a sick yoyo game is that? Yes, you are allowed to, whoops, no, now you're not.



    I don't get this either. People really should be more open-minded to change. I honestly don't understand why two people who want to committ to each are a threat to society and family. Why shouldn't two woman or two in a committed realtionship be regarded as family too, or be able to take care of children if they wish to do so.

    As I said , I simply don't get it. I guess I'm unable to put myself into the position of the people who voted Yes on Prop. 8. Personally I don't care for marriage at all, but do believe that everybody should have the right.

    I think most people except for fanatics feel the same way you do in the secular world. However its the forcing of this lifestyle on kids by way of tolerance that is causing the problem. Its also the age they are targeting the kids.

    It needs to happen though.
    Last edited by Tati; November 13th, 2008 at 10:45 PM.

  6. #126
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipstick View Post
    I'm not sure if I agree with that. It seems like you want to say it is the same thing. But marriage in and of itself is an archaic terminology. Marriage barely means anything that stands up in the modern era. Its just tradition. So why not start your own traditions? Just wondering. And what laws and legal rights are missing? Can't you just add them to domestic partnership?
    We have our own culture, such as it is, but if said tradition isn't a big deal... why the vociferous "defense" of it? Seems a bit contradictory.

    The number one reason parents were concerned in my friends realm is that you couldn't pull your kid out of class if you didn't want them taught gay tolerance.
    yes, heaven forbid they be dragged kicking and screaming into modernity. How dare anybody interfere with attempting to teach children not to be bigots.

    That's the real rub here: parents want to be able to teach their kids gay bigotry, and to try and prevent it represents and infringement of their rights.

    Secondly, these are FRIENDS of yours? You hang out with people who feel that they should be able to teach their kids to be bigots?

    Yeah, you can imagine my concern at the things you say sounding like our opponents. I wonder why. Again, the whole "I'm not racist i have black friends, but black people suck" thing is rearing its head in you.

    She mentioned that a father was arrested for trying to do so, although I think it was probably because he wouldn't leave the school. But these Christians feel they are being forced to tolerate things they disagree with.
    It's more about teaching people that hey, gays are here, they always have been, you can't pretend they don't exist just because your storybook says you should.

    But they tolerate it, like the video said, make friends, no problem.
    Yeah.. make friends after you make sure gays have no rights. After that, when gays are in their place, then you can make nice.

    Seriously?

    But now they feel that their rights are being imposed on and their role as a parent is being interfered with.
    Yes, I'm sure many a parent felt their rights were being imposed on when desegregation happened and they wer forced to deal with black people.

    Maybe that shouldn't have happened because their feewings were hurt, but it did. It's so dumb when you think about it

    This is no small thing, and there's really not a way around it because progress needs to happen.
    It IS a small thing, looked at logically.

    I suppose that if you could just stop the snap back accusations and the anger and consider that it might be very difficult to have this stuff forced on you if you were raised to think it was an abomination in the eyes of God and all that, and your vote would make you complicit.
    Yes, stop acting this way, stop ruffling feathers, etc etc etc.

    It must be SO difficult being christian and to not be a complete asshole when forced. The bible was also used to justify slavery, but the POOR POOR christians had to deal with that indignity when civil rights came around.. how EVER did they cope?

    I'm sorry, but who the fuck cares? Let's see any of these people grow up gay and compare how difficult it is. Give me a break. My heart bleeds purple piss for them lol


    That is why this needs to be settled by the courts. I think most people who voted yes, wouldn't be upset if the court overturned that vote. They just don't want to be responsible for it.
    Then they need to get out of the way before they're shoved out of the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by flipstick View Post
    I think most people except for fanatics feel the same way you do in the secular world. However its the forcing of this lifestyle on kids by way of tolerance that is causing the problem. Its also the age they are targeting the kids.

    It needs to happen though.
    Forcing it on them? No, we're teaching them the existence of us when others would rather pretend we did not exist at all. Out of sight, out of mind. Nobody is forcing them to BE gay, which is impossible anyhow.

    And lifestyle? It's not a lifestyle. It's not something you can buy a matching couch for. Lifestyle implies a choice. Do you choose to be straight?

    Again, you keep saying things that our opponents do, from YOUR perspective. It's unnerving.
    Last edited by Tati; November 13th, 2008 at 10:46 PM.
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  7. #127
    Elite Member nana55's Avatar
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    I have one thing to say to those Christian parents who do not want these "values" taught to their children........Private Christian School. Try it, you'll feel more comfortable there.
    If I can't be a good example, then let me be a horrible warning.

  8. #128
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    No shit. If your sky fairy nonsense prevents you from being a decent person, maybe you should re-evaluate the cult you belong to.

    *shudder*

    brainwashed fuckin' people, they'll be the end of humanity
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  9. #129
    Elite Member Lobelia's Avatar
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    Oh noez, the lifestyle discussion....!!!
    "I've cautiously embraced jeggings"
    Emma Peel aka Pacific Breeze aka Wilde1 aka gogodancer aka maribou

    Yip, yip, yip in your tiny indignation. Bark furiously on, lady dog.

  10. #130
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    That's a hot couch! It would go SO well with my gay lifestyle!
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  11. #131
    Elite Member Lobelia's Avatar
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    It comes with the scared little dude who's afraid to come out.
    "I've cautiously embraced jeggings"
    Emma Peel aka Pacific Breeze aka Wilde1 aka gogodancer aka maribou

    Yip, yip, yip in your tiny indignation. Bark furiously on, lady dog.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Forcing it on them? No, we're teaching them the existence of us when others would rather pretend we did not exist at all. Out of sight, out of mind. Nobody is forcing them to BE gay, which is impossible anyhow.

    And lifestyle? It's not a lifestyle. It's not something you can buy a matching couch for. Lifestyle implies a choice. Do you choose to be straight?

    Again, you keep saying things that our opponents do, from YOUR perspective. It's unnerving.

    No I don't. You just keep arguing with me as if I have. I think I've made it pretty clear I'm discussing why people voted against you. This is how they see it.

    You're a very strange bird. I always considered you a pretty smart poster but on this you've just ...I don't know.

  13. #133
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    oh, we'll have to make sure he catches the gay once he's exposed to my lifestyle.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  14. #134
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipstick View Post
    No I don't. You just keep arguing with me as if I have. I think I've made it pretty clear I'm discussing why people voted against you. This is how they see it.

    You're a very strange bird. I always considered you a pretty smart poster but on this you've just ...I don't know.

    yes, you do. that is the impression you are giving. Im telling you it is so.

    hell, you have friends who dont want their kids exposed to 'the gay lifestyle', whatever the fuck that means.

    how do you think THAT sounds on this end?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  15. #135
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    Grimmlok I really don't care how it sounds on your end because its clear you are being irrational.

    Several people seem to be able to comprehend that when I say things like "this was the issue of concern in my born again Christian friend's realm" that I am discussing the other perspective.

    Yes I have friends who don't want their kids exposed to the "gay lifestyle" to the point that she homeschools her kids. I also have another Christian fundy in Texas who does the same thing.

    And oddly we don't fight. In fact in discussing the issue with my girlfriend here I was able to get a concession from her that in the secular world she wouldn't have a problem with gay marriage as it didn't effect her personally. Additionally it was upsetting to her that homosexuals were denied visitation of loved ones in hospitals.

    The issue as I've pointed out is conceding something you don't understand and feeling complicit in going against what your good book tells you God wants.

    Its often difficult for atheists like myself to keep in mind that these people truly believe that there is a God and that the bible is his book. To me its just a story and history yadda yadda.

    These people feel they have a personal relationship with Jesus. It helps them get through their life. Good on them. And truly? Even my girlfriend has gay friends. She doesn't however want to be responsible for deciding whether or not they should be able to get married? Its not her place anyway.

    This is why it should not be voted upon.

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