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Thread: Keith Olbermann goes off on Prop 8.. you can feel the fury coming off him

  1. #76
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    the first 2 pictures, were an illegal protest.

    So was the third.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    I think his point is peaceful protest Grimmlok, no "Fuck you" signs for not agreeing.

    Revelling I don't need those who disagree. I don't need anyone but the courts. This is a civil rights issue not a community board vote. Hell no. You don't allow the majority to decide whether the minority gets to have rights.

  3. #78
    Elite Member Penny Lane's Avatar
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    Well I think (and it pains me to say this in the year 2008) that constitutional rights, although they should not be so easily given and taken away to gays and lesbians, can only come after tolerance does.

    Although the rights of the majority are not legally theirs to dispense as they see fit, Proposition 8 gave them that power. I just think that if the majority were more accepting and educated on homosexuality in a purely secular notion then they wouldn't be so quick to snatch up the rights of those they might deem unworthy of the same rights given to heterosexual couples.

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    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Really? You mean they did not have a permit to picket? Imagine that.

    You do realize the difference between a peaceful protest and one which involves loud, unorganized disturbance? Just look at those pics for the former and the video released in the last week for the latter.

    Those who lost out are going to see this situation one way and one way only. Anything outside the tunnel vision is going to be ignored.

    It's obvious what is being done and sadly, the reactions are the ones expected.

    A court, which isn't stacked with fundies, is what you need and exactly what you don't have. Until homosexuality is more tolerated, the rights state votes have taken away, will more than likely remain out of your hands.



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    Gold Member ymeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Ymeman, I have never referred to the gay people here as "you people". Don't put words in my mouth. If I wanted to refer to you as such, I would, but I don't do that. What would you like me to refer to gays as? Non-straights? If any of the terms used have offended you, what term should be used? If you noticed I have referred to hets and heteros but never shortened homosexual. I am pointing out sometimes the all or nothing approach can take longer than another. I am speaking strictly from a strategic standpoint.
    Just the fact that you are lecturing so vigorously about a unilateral viewpoint that you seem to actually believe exists among all gay people simultaneously (because we all think and act alike) shows me you know little about the gay community. Btw I didn't say you referred to anyone as 'you people' I said it seems you are dying to. Why? Because you are referring to one community collectively as 'you'. Ignorant. With every post you reveal just how ignorant you are about gay history and all the battles that have been fought and won. But I suspect you don't much care.

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    Then the courts are remiss in their duty.

    CNN.com - Massachusetts court rules ban on gay marriage unconstitutional - Feb. 4, 2004

    This is what courts are supposed to do. Step in and do their job. If they don't then start cramming the courts with lawsuits.

    Vermont same-sex marriage: Supreme court decision


    Tolerance didn't win Brown versus the Board of Ed. Legal rights forced tolerance.

    That's how I see it. Enough of this pansying around. (just caught my pun!)

  7. #82
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    A court, which isn't stacked with fundies, is what you need and exactly what you don't have.
    What makes you think the California Supreme Court is stacked with "fundies?"

  8. #83
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymeman View Post
    Just the fact that you are lecturing so vigorously about a unilateral viewpoint that you seem to actually believe exists among all gay people simultaneously (because we all think and act alike) shows me you know little about the gay community. Btw I didn't say you referred to anyone as 'you people' I said it seems you are dying to. Why? Because you are referring to one community collectively as 'you'. Ignorant. With every post you reveal just how ignorant you are about gay history and all the battles that have been fought and won. But I suspect you don't much care.
    So you can not be used collectively anymore? Touchy. The gay community doesn't exist? I am a part of the black community, the mixed community, the creole community. You, in the second person singular sense of the word, know I am referring to the collective movement. You are being nitpicky and argumentative for absolutely no reason other than you don't like what I am saying. You want to strike out at me and that is obviously one way of doing it.

    As I said before, seven countries, out of just under three hundred, have changed their laws. There is obviously a worldwide stigma which is not centered in the US or Christianity.

    Personally, this discussion has become flying accusations, insults, assumptions, and some taking everything personally.

    Hurling abuse and nastiness at someone who has the rights gays want isn't accomplishing anything positive for that goal. The nastiness does not affect me or my rights. *brushes off shoulder* I won't support oppression, but it is time to step away and let it unfold as it may, whether decided by vote or court. Hostility is usually an indicator of that.

    This civil rights movement has been compared to the black civil rights movement. Let me point out another obvious difference. When whites who supported the movement stepped up, blacks didn't shove them away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    What makes you think the California Supreme Court is stacked with "fundies?"
    Cali will be a mere stop on the way to the Supreme Court. Let's assume Cali's Supreme Court strikes down Prop 8 and legalizes marriages. There are other states which have already written into their Constitutions that no same-sex unions will be created or acknowledged within their borders. I live in a state with that law. A gay couple married elsewhere can move here, but they will not be seen as married here, thus receiving none of the benefits of marriage. Of course, challenges will arise. A conflict between two states' laws will put this issue on the fast track to the Supreme Court. Cali is a stepping stone.



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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post

    Personally, this discussion has become flying accusations, insults, assumptions, and some taking everything personally.

    This civil rights movement has been compared to the black civil rights movement. Let me point out another obvious difference. When whites who supported the movement stepped up, blacks didn't shove them away.

    I have to agree with this part of it. One of my friends online whom I have argued relentlessly in favor of gay rights over the last year and half was teasing me when I told him that I was being accused of not wanting gay marriage. He and I have nearly ended a friendship and one of my websites was shut down out of disgust when some of his friends came on board with their Texas fundamentalism arguing against gay rights.

    I don't get why trying to discuss a better approach makes you a homophobe. Its like piss off then. Sheesh.

  10. #85
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    a better approach? says who?

    all the integrating and playing nice has gotten gays squat.

    There's this irritating assumption of superiority emanating from those who aren't affected by this whole thing.

    "if the gays would just act how we want we would GIVE them rights. Sheesh. How ungrateful of them."

    I'd rather take them at the point of a bayonet than kowtow or simper, thanks.

    Something given as a result of acquescing to the parameters of those in power means nothing is learned.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Right because that's what I've been saying.

    Rolls eyes. LMFAO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flipstick View Post
    I don't care what your rights are, leave my kids out of it. That's pretty much the sentitment of most parents. And I think this is why this issue failed.
    Don't assume. The minute my husband and I are started trying for a baby, I loaded up my Amazon wish list with 'Heather Has Two Mommies' and 'And Tango Makes Three'. I want my kids to grow up knowing about all types of families.

    Quote Originally Posted by flipstick View Post
    Here's the newsflash. People learn about tolerance by experiencing it. Not by being taught it in school. I totally disagree that you should "teach tolerance" it only backfires when parents think you are ramming ideas down kids throats.
    Was my school just ridiculously wonderful and inclusive? Or are you not remembering your own childhood clearly? I distinctly remember learning about tolerance (I even remember my grade 4 teacher saying "tolerance is not enough") in all its forms, for different ethnicities, family structures, religions, languages, ability or disability levels - and our class composing and performing a rap song for a city-wide "Rap Out Racism" Day.

    We were taught elements of tolerance every day... you know, back when school used to view instilling values in children as a core part of its function. School, more than almost any other social institution, teaches you how to function in society. That doesn't work when you simply pretend certain members of society don't exist.
    If you reveal your secrets to the wind you should not blame the wind for revealing them to the trees.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    That's how it comes across, and you wonder why gays hear that and say "oh piss right off"
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  14. #89
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    As I said before, seven countries, out of just under three hundred, have changed their laws. There is obviously a worldwide stigma which is not centered in the US or Christianity.
    You're severely downplaying the role of Christianity throughout the world. The Catholic Spanish conquistadors required natives in South and Central America to forsake their own beliefs and convert to the Roman Catholic Church. Thus, Latin America is heavily Roman Catholic and the traditions of their ancestors are not what guides most modern-day Latin Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Cali will be a mere stop on the way to the Supreme Court. Let's assume Cali's Supreme Court strikes down Prop 8 and legalizes marriages. There are other states which have already written into their Constitutions that no same-sex unions will be created or acknowledged within their borders. I live in a state with that law. A gay couple married elsewhere can move here, but they will not be seen as married here, thus receiving none of the benefits of marriage. Of course, challenges will arise. A conflict between two states' laws will put this issue on the fast track to the Supreme Court. Cali is a stepping stone.
    You seem to be forgetting that the US Supreme Court does not have to take up a court case they don't want to. Since Prop 8 deals with the California Constitution, I don't see why the US Supreme Court would feel the need to take up the issue.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tati View Post
    Don't assume. The minute my husband and I are started trying for a baby, I loaded up my Amazon wish list with 'Heather Has Two Mommies' and 'And Tango Makes Three'. I want my kids to grow up knowing about all types of families.



    Was my school just ridiculously wonderful and inclusive? Or are you not remembering your own childhood clearly? I distinctly remember learning about tolerance (I even remember my grade 4 teacher saying "tolerance is not enough") in all its forms, for different ethnicities, family structures, religions, languages, ability or disability levels - and our class composing and performing a rap song for a city-wide "Rap Out Racism" Day.

    We were taught elements of tolerance every day... you know, back when school used to view instilling values in children as a core part of its function. School, more than almost any other social institution, teaches you how to function in society. That doesn't work when you pretend certain members of society don't exist.
    Perhaps that's just Canada. How woefully backward to not include all that in day to day education.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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