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Thread: Keith Olbermann goes off on Prop 8.. you can feel the fury coming off him

  1. #61
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Here is what I see.

    As someone who is straight, comes from the bible belt, was not taught bigotry by my family, which is another false assumption I have seen flung around, but learned it from other environments, I know your opponent better than you ever could. How? I WAS your fucking opponent.

    I have seen families accept an interracial marriage, then disown a gay person who comes out. I know the skewed thinking. You don't. You can't. You never will. Gays may know what it is like to be on the receiving end of it, but you don't know what it is to be straight. I don't know what it is to be gay.

    I don't care what any gay person says, you will never know as much as I do about those who vote silently to keep you in the shadows. You can say you do, but the truth is, you don't. You could be a rich, white, male executive who happens to be gay, and I will still stand by my assertion I know the opponent better than you.

    The opponent wouldn't dare tell you how they were going to vote. They laugh in your face, pat you on the back, invite you over to parties and as soon as you are out of earshot, they turn to people like me and say what they really feel. They may go to gay owned establishments and wave the rainbow flag, but they will never vote to let you marry, feeling there is a limit to acceptance of a "lifestyle" they see as "disgusting".

    You don't have to like what I say. You don't have to agree with it. I don't expect you to. Even I have walked away from the very thoughts and ideals I have been exposed to since birth. That doesn't change the fact that this is what you are facing and you are too arrogant and blinded by rage to discuss the reasons hets don't want you to marry, yet you are demanding hets listen to your reasons for wanting these rights.

    Unlawful protests, screaming in the streets, blocking traffic, refusing to pay taxes, and other reactions are going to get you nowhere. If you can't put aside your rage for one damn minute, shut your mouth, and think about what you have to do to win, you will lose every time.

    I know what I needed to hear to change my mind. I know it has changed the minds of others. Guess what it wasn't? Hostility and telling me I am wrong. That shut down communication damn quick.

    Since I am "not gay" and have no idea what I am talking about, as to why straights, women, and ethnic minorities voted gays down, I would like to know who would have that information.

    The argument which has the best chance of winning in court is family protection, but there are arguments against that as well. Innate trait? Can't be proven, which is exactly why this isn't the same as an ethnic minority civil rights case. Skin color has been proven to be an unchangeable genetic trait, just as height, eye color, gender, etc. have been proven to be ingrained before birth. Homosexuality has not been proven, to be a trait of that sort, even though many of us know or believe it is. There is compelling information suggesting those beliefs are true, but that isn't hardcore proof and won't stand up in a courthouse.

    I agree, the family angle is the best approach, but I know which argument will be thrown up immediately. Getting past that is going to be tough, but I think it can be accomplished.



  2. #62
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    What I am saying is that by shoving everything off the table except the civil rights issue then you have to force the courts to pass it. It already happened that way in Vermont I think it was.

    To me it is the height of stupidity to discuss anything other than getting those rights at this point. Mainly because we were so close to getting those rights. If it doesn't go through in the courts then its a different story.

    For example after Brown versus the Board of Ed the students had to be escorted into the school. It was the action of those brave families that took those seats in the schools that made it more and more the norm.

    Once it is more the norm, it is easier to teach tolerance.

    What I was trying to convey to Grimmlok is that there is no difference in teaching tolerance of families that needs to focus specifically on gay families. So kids are covered either way. By allowing the "children" to sway the voting we lost a really good opportunity for progress.

    To me the priority is on the right to marriage. That's got to be pushed through first in order for the rest of the rights to come.

    That's how I see it.

  3. #63
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Unlawful protests, screaming in the streets, blocking traffic, refusing to pay taxes, and other reactions are going to get you nowhere. If you can't put aside your rage for one damn minute, shut your mouth, and think about what you have to do to win, you will lose every time.







    Tell them that.

    We've played nice. It didn't work.

    Getting pissed off and marching and some police brutality would probably galvanize things.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  4. #64
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    What I was trying to convey to Grimmlok is that there is no difference in teaching tolerance of families that needs to focus specifically on gay families.
    And again, as I so presciently said would happen, you ignored me when i have pointed out multiple times that THIS IS NOT WHAT I SAID.

    I said INCLUDE THEM IN THE DISCUSSION OF ALL THE VARIOUS FAMILY UNITS.

    INCLUDE.

    INCLUDE.

    INCLUDE.

    not FOCUS.


    Fuck.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  5. #65
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    Ymenan I've been fighting for gay rights since 1991 how about you? I think some of us are annoyed because this is huge, I thought we had it and then we lost it.

    Family is the angle because family is about rights

    Love is not about rights. You don't have a right to love. Love is an emotion.

    The angles that have won have been human dignity rights. The right to visit your lover in the hospital. The right not to have fucking concern yourself with who approves of your relationship for it to carry legal rights. Insurance policies. The fact that families were torn apart during 911 and only the straight families were getting recognition.

    Its been heart wrenching. Horribly horribly heart wrenching. And some of us want to fucking win already.

    I guess I'm mad that it was derailed in the one place I thought it could win.

    We need lawsuits. I've been saying that for years. Law suits of the denial of family and a focus on the fact that people are not legally related to one another when they are members of a gay family.

    These kinds of issues.

  6. #66
    Elite Member MontanaMama's Avatar
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    Ok, fair enough. I guess my worry has always been that I never want my daughter or me to ever make a single child feel badly about themselves as they are discovering that they are gay or straight. Hell. when your own child is young, you don't know his or her orientation and I most certainly never wanted to give her any thought that I wouldn't accept who she or might become or be friends with.

    I think that Grim and Flip just so happen to be on the exact same side of this matter. But a spirited discussion none the less.

  7. #67
    Gold Member ymeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Unlawful protests, screaming in the streets, blocking traffic, refusing to pay taxes, and other reactions are going to get you nowhere. If you can't put aside your rage for one damn minute, shut your mouth, and think about what you have to do to win, you will lose every time.

    Why do I get the feeling you are dying to say 'you people'?

    I understand where you are coming from, I grew up and still live in the bible belt, from a family of republicans who are all straight (like the families of most gay people) and didn't come out til my early twenties. I was raised to be a homophobic baptist. I come from a family where today they would say the same thing about Martin Luther King, Jr. and they still call him a 'trouble-maker' and joke about his rumored (false) habit of sneaking off to sleep with white women. That's all this man was to them, a loud-mouth, a angry rabble-rouser and secret adulterer who should have kept it shut and not caused trouble and deserved to be assassinated because he did. It's the same old song and dance every time, don't make the nice people uncomfortable, they won't like you. Next...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    And again, as I so presciently said would happen, you ignored me when i have pointed out multiple times that THIS IS NOT WHAT I SAID.

    I said INCLUDE THEM IN THE DISCUSSION OF ALL THE VARIOUS FAMILY UNITS.

    INCLUDE.

    INCLUDE.

    INCLUDE.

    not FOCUS.


    Fuck.

    Well doll, since it includes it anyway, then what's the point of making a big stink out of it with regard to gay marriage eh? The kids are learning tolerance anyway.

    I'm more concerned about legal rights.


    I also have to disagree with Revelling. Being cooperatively oppressed just makes it easier for the intolerant majority to ignore. We need a lot of noise. The difference is we need it from everyone who disagreed. Not just the gay community. And I'd really like more people to speak out about it.

  9. #69
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    *bangs head on desk*

    If you cannot FORCE equal rights, then you have to change the makeup of society so that the prospect does not scare people. If adults will not listen, then you trickle the information UP.

    It IS a bit of indoctrination to teach kids how to be decent and aware of differences, but there's no negative to it.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  10. #70
    Elite Member Penny Lane's Avatar
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    "Facing the fear and addressing it calmly" would be the goal of teaching gay tolerance in schools... or am I reading this wrong?

    Children need to be socialized. If parents aren't willing to socialize their children outside the realm of bigotry, then I see no problem with schools taking up the slack. Yes, some parents will take offense with the prospect of educating their children about the 'sinful' and 'immoral' idea of homosexuality but we need something to break the cycle of homophobia... I'm not saying it would work across the board, but shooting down the idea of teaching tolerance of unconventional familial units is just obliterating any hope we have towards socializing kids to be a open-minded and nonjudgmental of gays and lesbians. This has nothing to do with teaching about homosexual sex practices.. this is just telling children that it's not wrong to grow up with two mommies or daddies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    *bangs head on desk*

    If you cannot FORCE equal rights, then you have to change the makeup of society so that the prospect does not scare people. If adults will not listen, then you trickle the information UP.

    It IS a bit of indoctrination to teach kids how to be decent and aware of differences, but there's no negative to it.

    No Grim. You fucking can so force equal rights. You just stop concerning yourself with your feelings getting hurt by some intolerant baptist and walk your asses down to the Supreme Court and start suing the hell out of everyone who allowed the marriage to go through and then reneged on it. Ellen should be first in line.

  12. #72
    Gold Member ymeman's Avatar
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    I think the problem is that kids are indoctrinated to think that homosexuality is wrong. I know I was, in church, well before I went to school. And 'wrong' is putting it mildly, this was back in the day when Falwell or one of the psycho fundies was openly saying that gays 'would just as soon kill you as look at you'. So hows about just not teaching them it's wrong, instead of having to teach and preach 'tolerance'.

    p.s. flipstick I came out in '91 as well, interesting, hmmm...

  13. #73
    Elite Member Penny Lane's Avatar
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    Religion is a hopeless endeavor, at least in my opinion it is... I have gone to churches where homosexuality was tolerated, but certainly not celebrated. I have also gone to churches where homosexuality was labeled, and this is verbatim, 'a first-class ticket to the depths of hell'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stylejunkiex View Post
    "Facing the fear and addressing it calmly" would be the goal of teaching gay tolerance in schools... or am I reading this wrong?

    Children need to be socialized. If parents aren't willing to socialize their children outside the realm of bigotry, then I see no problem with schools taking up the slack. Yes, some parents will take offense with the prospect of educating their children about the 'sinful' and 'immoral' idea of homosexuality but we need something to break the cycle of homophobia... I'm not saying it would work across the board, but shooting down the idea of teaching tolerance of unconventional familial units is just obliterating any hope we have towards socializing kids to be a open-minded and nonjudgmental of gays and lesbians. This has nothing to do with teaching about homosexual sex practices.. this is just telling children that it's not wrong to grow up with two mommies or daddies.
    No but this angle is distracting it from being a civil rights angle.

    To me tolerance the way it sounds is putting up with something different that you disagree with.

    I don't quite know how to explain what I mean but its not tolerance that gets rights. To me tolerance comes with dealing with rights you maybe don't agree with? Does that make sense?

    Tolerance isn't about permission or acceptance to me at all. That in some way still puts the power in the hands of the majority.

    I disagree with this concept intensely.

    To me rights exist whether the hell you agree with them or not. I'd be a lot more demanding of my rights if I was gay. I don't care if "you tolerate me" or you agree I have a constitutional right to the pursuit of happiness and building a legal family is one of them. I wouldn't give two shits if the whole world disagreed and was intolerant because my kids and family would come first.

    My legal right to have a family. This is what I never ever see addressed. Rather its all about compassion and understanding and tolerance. Fuck that.

    I don't give a damn about compassion and understanding and tolerance. I want my constititutional rights.

    That's how I see it.

  15. #75
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    The first two pictures show an orderly protest. The second shows a woman freaked out over an injured person.

    I've seen those many times. Your point?

    Ymeman, I have never referred to the gay people here as "you people". Don't put words in my mouth. If I wanted to refer to you as such, I would, but I don't do that. What would you like me to refer to gays as? Non-straights? If any of the terms used have offended you, what term should be used? If you noticed I have referred to hets and heteros but never shortened homosexual. I am pointing out sometimes the all or nothing approach can take longer than another. I am speaking strictly from a strategic standpoint.

    Flipstick, I respect your disagreement. What you need is not only the voices of those who voted no, but also the voices of those who voted yes.



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