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Thread: Keith Olbermann goes off on Prop 8.. you can feel the fury coming off him

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    No, because straight people make up 90% and are, de rigeur, the norm.



    Porn party, wtf?


    How many kids could be headed off at the pass before ignorant bumfucks in their lives try to teach them hate?
    Not too many. If the parental influence is that hateful then its not going to matter what is taught in school.

    Case in point...........oh wait, the fact that we're even having this discussion because you were denied your rights in one of the most liberal states in the country............hello!!!!!!!!



    Fabulous! Except none of them ever had a family, wwere never shown in a family setting, were never even shown ROMANCE WITH ANOTHER PARTNER.. Will & Grace was not a gay family! It was sanitized gays that never had kids, never went on dates, and never so much as kissed each other affectionately.

    EVER.
    So which is it that you want to teach kids? Dates and affectionate kissing? You just said that you didn't think that mattered. ? Make up your mind. Because seriously you are your own worst enemy in this argument.






    It's not destroying it. Pushing it, and shedding light on exactly WHY something like that should be taught, FOR EVERYBODY, not just gays, is the only way it'll ever change.




    It becomes an issue later, hence 'heading off at the pass'. If Timmy's friend comes over and starts wondering why he has 2 days or 2 moms, it might be beneficial for him to know that it's just how some families are. EDUCATION!
    Kids know how families are because they experience them. Seriously think back to when you were a kid, what would you think if you went to Timmy's house and he had two mommies? First off if you did go and were so little that it confused you, your parents would be the one you would go to. So in a lot of ways trying to trump a parents role causes resentment among parents.





    Again, you're focusing on the GAY part, which in your head has (of course) led to SEX.. I'm focusing on the "FAMILY UNIT" part, devoid of sex, as an educational tool.
    No you are not. Scroll up and read about your concern with Will and Grace being too "sanitized" for your taste in what kids should be exposed to. You want the kids to see dates, and kissing and such things. Then you say its got nothing to do with sex?

    Kids won't care if Timmy has two mommies. That's what I'm trying to say.

    I'm focusing on family units and pointing out that there is no distinction in the family that would matter to a kid. A kid will not care because a kid will not understand the implication of two mommies. It would just be two mommies.




    Did daddy do a crime? Then daddy should be in jail.
    Again you are missing the point. Should we teach kids that sometimes daddy is in jail in order to teach tolerance for children who are raised in homes that have daddy's in jail?

    Answer this question because this is it in a nutshell. Don't you think kids whose parents are in jail are suffering just as much as a kid with gay parent? Don't you think that society just as much demonizes a man in jail to a kid?

    Aren't we talking about the best interests of a child here? Or are you really that insecure that you care what a 5 year old kid thinks of you so much that you want to make sure you teach that kid to accept you? If so, that really spells out what the problem is in perspective. When they say they are supposed to teach it in school its about protecting the child in the gay family. Not the parents from being judged.

    So sticking with this point, don't you think that by teaching that some kids have parents in jail, is really going to open up a can of worms that kids wouldn't even go to unless they were taught to?



    Really? You fucking think so? Have a read:

    Bigot beats two women in front of their child, at school

    And you think that if the kid in school had been taught that this wouldn't have happened? Really?



    Again, you're totally lost. I keep saying educate about family units, all of them, 2 moms, 2 days, 1 mom and dad, 1 mom, 1 dad... ALL OF IT.

    You're stuck in gay = sex + kids = ew.
    No I'm not at all. I'm saying that other parents are. Full well. Its reality so deal with it.

    You are stuck in that having 2 moms or 2 dads is so different that it needs to be mentioned in school. You've yet to explain why?




    It's wasting tax payer money to teach kids about being decent to each other, and educating them about the different kinds of families out there so it's not a big deal later on and ignorance is diminished?
    Its wasting tax payer money to teach kids specifically about gay families. Yes it is, because they don't need to be taught specifically about gay families. Newsflash. Not every other family in the world except gay families is mom and dad. Maybe watch Barney for a sec and you'd see kids are educated in different ways. There are all different kinds of families out there. Plenty of differences and kids accept them because that's what they are.





    Oh is it! Why is that? How does teaching kids about all the different kinds of family units out there INTERFERE with anything but bigotry?

    Please, enlighten me on what it INTERFERES with.
    Again you are arguing for theory rather than reality. The reality is simple.

    A tolerant family isn't going to need their kid to be taught tolerance in school. If a tolerant family finds out that Chimbo was taught about gay families they won't care.

    The only families that do care are the bigots. And the bigot or Christian fundy families will attempt to undo what the kid is taught in school. Big time. My girlfriend who is born again dragged out the bible and told her 13 year old and 9 year old daughters that homosexuality is an abomination in the eyes of God. She did so precisely because she heard about this proposal. So in my opinion this is not going to work the way you think it should.



    It IS acceptable. Just like black people riding in the front of the bus is now. They just need to learn it, and weed the bigotry from their systems. If not them, then their kids.
    Right this is what I mean by living tolerance. Most young people in the world do accept homosexuality. Its just a matter of as you said old people dying off and new ideas coming forward. I think if this was first legalized without concern of tolerance, if instead it was a simple civil rights issue then homosexuals would get their rights.

    I agree with what you feel 100 percent just not how you have gone about getting those rights. They elude you because fear is more powerful than logic.




    No, it's not confusing at all. Not at all. What's becoming implicitly clear is that you seem to be beholden to the same crap they are. How unfortunate for you.
    You accused another poster of this. And he was saying the same thing I am. Its all well and good and rant on about gay rights and the unfairness but it actually pisses me off how much the gay community is fucking this up. I have a feeling I've been fighting for gay rights before you even knew you were gay so spare me the silly insult.


    Yes, are you?



    Again, you're ignoring everything I just said. If you head them off early at the pass about different family units and how it's NOT GROSS or icky or bizarre then it helps prevent them from growing up into bigoted, ignorant assholes.
    How are you doing that without teaching it? How are you heading them off at the pass. You are double talking.

    Kids do not think two parents are gross.

    Kids do not think Timmy's two parents are gross.

    Kids don't think that way.

    That's what doesn't make any sense to me. What exactly are you saying you are teaching kids? Kids won't care that Timmy has two mommies. They won't understand the sexual implication of that until much later. And even if they have been taught that homosexuality is fine it won't change the opinion of some people growing up that homosexual sex is gross to some people.

    I'm sorry that it makes you mad but some people think homosexual sex is gross. Just like some people think blow jobs are gross, anal sex is gross. Some people think cunnilingus is gross or using accessories is gross. Gay sexual preferences are not exclusive to inducing gross out ideas. Grow up.



    Yes it will. With time, and effort, and patience. With all education, it is constantly evolving. Things we look on NOW as being absurd were the norm 50 to 100 years ago because we know better. This is no different.
    I agree but my concern now, is you getting your rights. If this is what is causing people to vote against it then I say take it off the table.

    I'm not talking tolerance. I'm only talking your civil rights in this issue. It is my opinion that once you have the legal right to marry and more and more people do, then it will naturally evolve.

    It is my opinion that you are approaching the situation the wrong way.



    Exactly. Hence, teaching them young in a matter of fact way about all the different ways people live as a family, so later on it's already a non issue for them when they're confronted by it.



    You don't EXPERIENCE tolerance.

    That is experiencing tolerance. Tolerance to me is not "accepting what is different" by noticing it and being kind about it. Its about it not being "what is different" because everything is different in its own way.


    For one, the living situation. WHo lives with who, who is a family, who is a unit. Are you deliberately ignoring this or what?
    That's what I'm saying. That is the point. Go take a gander out there and you will be suprised at what family units look like these days. Why do you think they stopped making father's day gifts in schools?


    Sorry, how many 8 year olds are in kindergarten? How many 8 year olds wonder about straight people having sex? Why would this be any different?




    How many 5 year olds are exposed to someone with 2 mommies or daddies? It's relatively rare. While it does exist, it's not as prevalent and thus the opportunity for exposure is pretty low.
    Right and so? What difference does the low exposure make? The kid is not going to care. I know plenty of kids that have two mommies and two daddies, their parents got divorced and married other people. They also have half brothers and sisters. They also have grandmother living in or auntie. My point to you is that you are drawing attention to something kids wouldn't even bat an eyelash at.



    What question have i not answered? I've vivisected each thought and answered it.


    You haven't answered this question. What difference is there between Timmy having a father and Timmy having two fathers that you feel that needs to be brought to an 8 year olds attention and why?



    Where? Where did I mention it except to point out that YOU JUST DID 1 post up?

    Uh, yes? 1 post up? let me repost it for you:

    "Once you start talking about teaching children about homosexual sex in order to bolster tolerance........that's that. "
    I'm speaking of the panic of parents. My kids are older and so I don't count. I would however suggest you stop and think about how reactive parents get when it comes to non issues in the world. I urge you to think of the reaction to the Janet Jackson nipplegate incident because of the young minds. Anything to do with sex is going to send parents running for the hills. They panic over nothing. You have to know that? So it seems very stupid to me to take this approach.





    No, again for the billionth fucking time, which you will no doubt ignore like all the others...

    I WANT KIDS TO BE TAUGHT ABOUT DIFFERENT FAMILY UNITS INCLUDING THE 2 MOMMY AND 2 DADDY SITUATION SO THEY ARE EXPOSED TO IT AND IT IS A NON ISSUE LATER IN LIFE THUS REDUCING THE RISK OF IGNORANCE AND BIGOTRY AND MOVING ALL OF HUMANITY FORWARD IN ENLIGHTENMENT.



    Is that clear enough? I've said it multiple times but you seem to ignore it.
    No its just that you don't seem to understand that kids don't have ignorance and bigotry unless they are taught it by their parents. And by forcing the issue in schools you are going to have bigots forcing back. You do know this right? Do you honestly think a five year old kid is going to have the wherewithall to question daddies motives as a racist fuck?

    Again, you're stuck in GAY GAY GAY SEX SEX SEX mode, where I'm talking about FAMILY UNITS (yet again)
    No I'm not. Bigots are. Stop taking your temper tantrum out on me because you are mad at them. I'm discussing reality. Do I agree with it, absolutely not. So stop twisting my words.

    We really are on the same side here.

  2. #47
    Elite Member Folieadeux's Avatar
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    HUH? I don't understand the logic of not teaching tolerance, or at least educating children on different family units in schools.

    Children generally don't need to be 'taught' about straight families because most grow up in them and it becomes a 'learned behavior' or a societal norm. Children should understand the nucleus of gay families because ignorance leads to fear.

    Tolerance isn't about ramming anything down anyones throat. The insinuation it is only leads me to believe that the person that is being taught, isn't tolerant in the first place, hence the 'ramming it down the throat' which implies that the person doesn't want to understand.

    Children learn most of their behaviors in the home. Behaviors can become learned and imposed upon children way before they go to school. It's unfortunate that there are so many bigoted and prejudiced parents in America instilling worthless and hateful values in their children.

    I hope Prop.8 is thrown out.
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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    1) You are still ignoring what I'm saying. Im saying teach about all family units. You're telling me i'm saying "just teach about gay families". That is not what i said. I even pointed out that was not what i said multiple times, and you insist on repeating this. Go back and read.

    2) You're still, STILL equating teaching of differing family units with GAY SEX. Till you've evolved from that, there can be no discussion. You've mentioned it about 5 times now while I have repeatedly told you that was not what I had said, though, typed, or even imagined or mentioned.

    3) Till you evolve from this, there's no point in going further. You could probably benefit from the education I'm talking about, so you can divorce yourself from the "learning about family units including days = teaching kids about gay sex" thing. Really.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Elite Member nana55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipstick View Post
    I disagree. I don't think most kids would even notice until you pointed it out to them. You know I've noticed that most "kids" don't call people "black" until they are taught to think that way. One of my son's friends referred to him as the "brown skinned boy" for a long time before they became friends.

    Kids see things differently. When they say "brown skinned boy" its not about being racist. Its just how they saw him. It was only when the mother of that boy decided he would be offensive did she teach him to be "tolerant" by categorizing my son as "blacK." Now suddenly my son's friend had been taught a lable and patted on the back for being more PC. Terrific. Except now my son wasn't being described he was being categorized.

    If Timmy draws two mommies, most kids will see two mommies. Lots of kids have two mommies like divorced parents who remarried. Lots of kids have no daddies these days. Lots of kids have two daddies these days. Lots of kids have caregivers that are not their parents.

    Tolerance would be stop celebrating Mothers day and Father's day in school in order to be fair. That would be cool.

    Children are not born to judge and discern. They are taught it. I believe what we think we are doing to help the child only hurts them.

    Take a midget? This weekend my SIL and I were in a store and a midget walked in and her 3 year old went bonkers and wanted to see him. But SIL ran out pronto and chided the girl not to point out little men....teaching tolerance? Kids are tolerant. Adults are too wound up.
    Excuse me but I work in school and unless tolerence is taught at home or in school kids will want to know WHY you don't have a daddy, or only have mommies. The kids will ask what they are supposed to do for father's day if they don't have a father. The teachers can and do explain it very simply. They don't go into the sex part for God's sake. My grandaughter doesn't refer to kids as "brownskinned" or "black". See says their name or descibes by hair color. hair is the most important thing to her.

    Also someone needs to teach you that "little people" do NOT like to be called "midgets" They find it offensive. Try being a little more tolerent.
    If I can't be a good example, then let me be a horrible warning.

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    I call people what they ask me to. Sorry that offends you.

    Additionally I don't live in Canada, I'm seeing perhaps that's a problem. I always thought Canada was a very tolerant country. I had no idea. I live in NYC and its a pretty tolerant place. So perhaps that's why I see it the way I do.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Canada is by far more tolerant. By far. On top of that, most people live in the 5 major cities up here, 85% or so. Metropolitan atmosphere in full swing. Canada also has this niggling propensity to want to be FAIR to everybody. Even if it sucks, we like to be fair because it's the right thing to do.


    Oshawa is some orbiting suburban factory mullet town outside of Toronto. In that article i linked to, 2 lesbians were assaulted for being lesbians and having a child. This is also completely shocking to anybody in this area.. 2 women just beaten for that? It doesn't happen. That's why there's such revulsion right now.

    This happening in the states, well, nobody would blink an eye. That article highlights exactly WHY this should be taught in schools.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    1) You are still ignoring what I'm saying. Im saying teach about all family units. You're telling me i'm saying "just teach about gay families". That is not what i said. I even pointed out that was not what i said multiple times, and you insist on repeating this. Go back and read.
    You have yet to explain what is the difference between teaching about families in general and teaching about gay families. You've not once explained this.

    2) You're still, STILL equating teaching of differing family units with GAY SEX. Till you've evolved from that, there can be no discussion. You've mentioned it about 5 times now while I have repeatedly told you that was not what I had said, though, typed, or even imagined or mentioned.

    No I am not. But the majority of people who voted against you are. I've said this several times and you keep ignoring it. You aren't debating me here, I'm on your side. But on this issue this is the fear that stopped the civil rights you deserve.


    3) Till you evolve from this, there's no point in going further. You could probably benefit from the education I'm talking about, so you can divorce yourself from the "learning about family units including days = teaching kids about gay sex" thing. Really.
    Do you honestly think I'm against gay rights? That is laughable. Hysterical.

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    Elite Member nana55's Avatar
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    Why do you think they stopped making father's day gifts in schools?

    Because the school year ends way before father's Day. When it doesn't we make Father's Day gifts like we do Mother's Day. I want to call you a bad name but I will not do it. What you are is homophobic even if you won't admit it. Schools TEACH about famlies whether you want them to or not. When they always show a mommy and daddy it confuses children who either have one of them missing, or have two of the same LIVING in the same home. Teaching about different families and that a family is a group of people who live togther and love each other is what they teach now. They still have father-daughter dances, and some girls bring Uncles, or girls bring aunties if they are missing an opposite sex member in their house. You are so intolerent. Trying to be all cool and pretend it isn't important is ridiculous. To some children with intolerent parents it is important to teach them. Schools have to often teach things parents can't or won't. Don't like it? Homeschool.
    If I can't be a good example, then let me be a horrible warning.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipstick View Post
    You have yet to explain what is the difference between teaching about families in general and teaching about gay families. You've not once explained this.
    Exactly my point. There is no difference in essence, or should not be. However, society still makes sure there is one. By including gays in said discussion, you include them in the overall context of normal society.

    No I am not. But the majority of people who voted against you are. I've said this several times and you keep ignoring it. You aren't debating me here, I'm on your side. But on this issue this is the fear that stopped the civil rights you deserve.
    and as I have said, if they will not learn then their children will. Trickle UP.

    Do you honestly think I'm against gay rights? That is laughable. Hysterical.
    Frankly, and maybe it's an American thing, but you have (outside of the context of merely relaying what OTHERS say, which is funny because you guys never say what YOU are saying) alluded to the same crap we here from the stupids.

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    The blonde would be on the floor laughing at you accusing me of this.
    Super for you, really. Your argument still stinks and obviously it's either bad communication or your positions are untenable, since nobody else seems to be buying much of them.

    It's kind of like hearing someone say "Well, im not racist and i have black friends, but (insert racism here)."
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    Elite Member nana55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flipstick View Post
    I call people what they ask me to. Sorry that offends you.

    Additionally I don't live in Canada, I'm seeing perhaps that's a problem. I always thought Canada was a very tolerant country. I had no idea. I live in NYC and its a pretty tolerant place. So perhaps that's why I see it the way I do.
    No little person wants to be called a midget NONE I live in San Diego. I have since 1962. I was born and raised in Canada which is indeed much more tolerent.
    If I can't be a good example, then let me be a horrible warning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nana55 View Post
    Why do you think they stopped making father's day gifts in schools?

    Because the school year ends way before father's Day. When it doesn't we make Father's Day gifts like we do Mother's Day. I want to call you a bad name but I will not do it. What you are is homophobic even if you won't admit it. Schools TEACH about famlies whether you want them to or not. When they always show a mommy and daddy it confuses children who either have one of them missing, or have two of the same LIVING in the same home. Teaching about different families and that a family is a group of people who live togther and love each other is what they teach now. They still have father-daughter dances, and some girls bring Uncles, or girls bring aunties if they are missing an opposite sex member in their house. You are so intolerent. Trying to be all cool and pretend it isn't important is ridiculous. To some children with intolerent parents it is important to teach them. Schools have to often teach things parents can't or won't. Don't like it? Homeschool.

    Here's what I think Nana. I think you skimmed through my post because it was a long read and you are taking Grimmlok's word that I am against gay rights.

    I am discussing something slightly different. I know its difficult to understand by your accusation of homophobe would probably evoke the response of dunderhead from me or something similar.

    I am not talking about my personal beliefs.

    Here are my personal beliefs.

    I believe that denying a homosexual the right to marry whoever he or she is in love with and chooses to marry is a constitutional violation.

    I believe (as I've stated ad nauseum) that this vote is an unconstituional tyranny of the majority, something which as John Stuart Mill cautioned in a voting democracy. It is the same thing which our founding fathers wisely sought to avoid by the checks and balances of our system. Thus this issue should be resolved in the courts and declared unconstitutional and wrong.

    I called this long ago when the dipstick coward Arnold said this is how he was going to handle this.

    You can not allow the majority to vote on rights of the minority. Additonally the sentiment of this vote, was that in such a liberal state people would vote for gay rights. This shocked everyone and it is a very good reminder of why these kinds of votes can't be allowed. You can not allow the majority to sit to think and decide whether or not they will "allow" the miniority to have equal rights. That's just fucked up.

    In my opinion Grimmlok's angle of family is what is going to win the court cases.

    If however the courts refuse to take it then I suggested earlier that someone needs to discuss a lawsuit for a violation of their right to pursue happiness. It is in my opinion a fundamental right to happiness to build a family. This is the angle that should be taken. Essential points should be made, for example Melissa Ethridge not being allowed to adopt her own children. These kinds of things.

    Now wow you all are so angry as to be ridiculous. I'm not the one who voted against you. Someone else tried Revelling I think it was to explain what seemed to cause fear of homosexuals. Facing the fear and addressing it calmly is what builds tolerance.

    Not hatred and accusation spewing out. That's just bad energy man. Seriously.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    I believe that lawsuit happened the day prop 8 went through, the happiness thing
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    Here's the vid I used to send to people to convey my perspective on gay marriage rights.

    YouTube - Permission to be . . .


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    Quote Originally Posted by flipstick View Post
    Civil rights changed by staying about Civil Rights. The gay community is putting the cart before the horse. And

    its not working.

    That's my take. If its not working then I'd be tossing off big time what gets in the way.

    Until

    Until kids start seeing gay families, none of the tolerance is going to make any sense because it won't be relevant to the world they see.

    Before tolerance get the rights.

    I agree that its not right. But to me doing what's practical makes more sense.
    I'm not sure I understand the point you've been trying to make, but I appreciate your committment to making it. One question...

    If the State of California has interpretted its own constitution to say that it is discriminatory to define marriage as only between a man and a woman, but now has decided that a marriage is soley and specifically defined as being between a man and a woman AND the State of Arkansas now only allows heterosexuals to foster or adopt children how will "kids start seeing gay families?" And thus create their own tolerance, and thus will then be allowed to be married, if gay, to create a gay family? Will all children have to be raised in Vermont, Massachusetts or any other the dozens of other coutries that recognize and allow gay marriage?

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    Gold Member ymeman's Avatar
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    I'm really getting annoyed by all these posts telling gay people how we are doing/have done everything 'wrong' by people who know fuck-all about gay history.

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