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Thread: Jesse Ventura schools Elizabeth Hasselbeck on torture

  1. #31
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scooter View Post
    See...now that's where I disagree with you King. I fully admit before typing this that I am as dark blue left as it is possible to be. After 8 years of W/Cheney/Rummy/GOP control of the Senate...I really wanted someone who would address the far right/neocon legislation passed during the last 8 years. I didnt want a middle of the road split the difference type. I wanted a Democrat with a capital D. But once he was the candidate, I had to get behind him. Really...what was the option? McCain/Palin? Not likely.
    I get where you're coming from, Scooter. But no Democrat who was a hardcore liberal would've even gotten elected. I'm mean Obama has conservatives who hate him out right and liberals who are pissed at him, but he's still a popular president. Even the Democrats in Congress are trying to block some of Obama's more progressive plans, so it just shows that the Democratic Party as a whole isn't ready to completely shift away from the politics of the last 8 years.

    And things would be the same if Hillary were president. The Republicans would be bashing her just for the hell of it and the liberals would be pissed at her, because she isn't a hardcore liberal just like they did with Bill.

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    Honestly...Hillary was way more of a chicken hawk than I would have liked too, in a perfect world. There were others Like Dennis K who would have been much higher up my list if the truth be known, if they were at all marketable.. I like the gay marriage, legalize marijuana, end the war all together, we own the banks and car company types. as Seinfeld would say "you say Socialism as though it's a bad thing". Have a great Memorial day!
    Last edited by scooter; May 22nd, 2009 at 08:11 PM.

  3. #33
    Friend of Gossip Rocks! buttmunch's Avatar
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    Torture = enhanced interrogation techniques. How about rape as "non compliant sexual gratification"! Would that be legal too?

    You should go on the View and chuck that one in Hasselcracks' face. I'll buy your ticket there.

    See...now that's where I disagree with you King. I fully admit before typing this that I am as dark blue left as it is possible to be. After 8 years of W/Cheney/Rummy/GOP control of the Senate...I really wanted someone who would address the far right/neocon legislation passed during the last 8 years. I didnt want a middle of the road split the difference type. I wanted a Democrat with a capital D. But once he was the candidate, I had to get behind him. Really...what was the option? McCain/Palin? Not likely.


    I'm probably as liberal as you but I'm glad Obama is more centrist. I agree with King that it's better to have someone governing somewhat from the middle. Clinton did it and very successfully. I think Obama is a pragmatist and will fight for what he thinks is important and let other things slide because he knows it will be a wast of energy to try. I like him and I like his governing style. I think we know what divisiveness does to the country and I think we know it's time for that crap to end.
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
    --Sinclair Lewis

  4. #34
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    Yup. Those of us in the middle are seen as indecisive and not able to pick a side. Forget the fact that being more moderate means you can see both sides of the argument, even if you agree with one over the other.

    That's why liberals are so pissed with Obama. They thought he was a hardcore liberal, but if they had been paying attention during the campaign they would've seen that he wasn't a hardcore liberal. Which I'm happy about. I don't think a president should be a hardcore conservative or a hardcore liberal, because you can't effectively govern from one side or the other. Because most people fall somewhere in the center politically, leaning conservative or liberal on specific issues.
    Exactly. We are accused of waffling. The hardcore conservatives consider us immoral while the hardcore liberals consider us closet zealots. I firmly believe the middle ground has the most sense and stability. We can look out over the entire field, instead of at the stalks immediately surrounding us.

    Obama never struck me as an extreme lefty, which I would never have supported, considering it would be McCain in a different suit. I hope to see more middle of the road candidates in the future, not theocrats or anarchists.



  5. #35
    Elite Member Cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    Yup. Those of us in the middle are seen as indecisive and not able to pick a side. Forget the fact that being more moderate means you can see both sides of the argument, even if you agree with one over the other.

    That's why liberals are so pissed with Obama. They thought he was a hardcore liberal, but if they had been paying attention during the campaign they would've seen that he wasn't a hardcore liberal. Which I'm happy about. I don't think a president should be a hardcore conservative or a hardcore liberal, because you can't effectively govern from one side or the other. Because most people fall somewhere in the center politically, leaning conservative or liberal on specific issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by scooter View Post
    See...now that's where I disagree with you King. I fully admit before typing this that I am as dark blue left as it is possible to be. After 8 years of W/Cheney/Rummy/GOP control of the Senate...I really wanted someone who would address the far right/neocon legislation passed during the last 8 years. I didnt want a middle of the road split the difference type. I wanted a Democrat with a capital D. But once he was the candidate, I had to get behind him. Really...what was the option? McCain/Palin? Not likely.
    I think both of you are speaking to some real issues, and IMO, this is why Democrats are so easily divided. My personal opinion is that we need to pull out of this short-run view. Engaging in pissing contests among moderates vs. liberals won't get us any closer to the goal. We need to focus on what we can all agree upon: undoing and correcting the illegal acts of the last 8 years, and re-establishing a fair, progressive and American way of conducting ourselves moving forward.

    My educated hunch on Obama is that he is a deep left Liberal, but he is also an incredibly smart and savvy politician. Watch his end-game- that's my strongest point about the man. He is a brilliant strategist and incredibly insightful at judging the political climate and his adversaries. He is authentic and perhaps moreso than any other public figure I'm aware of, he is incredibly focused at keeping his eye on what he ultimately wishes to accomplish. Time after time during the campaign, a decision would come down, and we'd be like, 'WTF?!' Then, a few weeks later, we'd realize that it was perfect- the decision was crazy- like a fox. Given the room and the time, the truth came out. Just think about it - there are lots examples.

    I truly believe Obama is operating in the same manner as President. He blocked the release of the detainee photos of abuse- beyond the obvious, he likely did it because the ACLU and FISA will force them to be released anyway. In the short run, he protected the troops, appeased the moderates and neutralized the GOP talking points. In the long run, he fulfilled his duties as Commander in Chief to protect the troops, let our system of checks and balances run its course, and ultimately the liberals will be happy when the photos are released. Everyone wins.

    I realize that example is a guess- but its very likely that it will play out exactly like that.

    What more could we want in a President? He's getting shit done, keeping it legal and transparent, and not obliterating his political future.

  6. #36
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cali View Post
    I think both of you are speaking to some real issues, and IMO, this is why Democrats are so easily divided. My personal opinion is that we need to pull out of this short-run view. Engaging in pissing contests among moderates vs. liberals won't get us any closer to the goal. We need to focus on what we can all agree upon: undoing and correcting the illegal acts of the last 8 years, and re-establishing a fair, progressive and American way of conducting ourselves moving forward.

    My educated hunch on Obama is that he is a deep left Liberal, but he is also an incredibly smart and savvy politician. Watch his end-game- that's my strongest point about the man. He is a brilliant strategist and incredibly insightful at judging the political climate and his adversaries. He is authentic and perhaps moreso than any other public figure I'm aware of, he is incredibly focused at keeping his eye on what he ultimately wishes to accomplish. Time after time during the campaign, a decision would come down, and we'd be like, 'WTF?!' Then, a few weeks later, we'd realize that it was perfect- the decision was crazy- like a fox. Given the room and the time, the truth came out. Just think about it - there are lots examples.

    I truly believe Obama is operating in the same manner as President. He blocked the release of the detainee photos of abuse- beyond the obvious, he likely did it because the ACLU and FISA will force them to be released anyway. In the short run, he protected the troops, appeased the moderates and neutralized the GOP talking points. In the long run, he fulfilled his duties as Commander in Chief to protect the troops, let our system of checks and balances run its course, and ultimately the liberals will be happy when the photos are released. Everyone wins.

    I realize that example is a guess- but its very likely that it will play out exactly like that.

    What more could we want in a President? He's getting shit done, keeping it legal and transparent, and not obliterating his political future.
    I get where you're coming from, Cali. But I don't think Obama is a deep-left liberal. I think he's liberal to some degree, but I don't think he's a hardcore liberal. The GOP picked up on that back in 2004, which is why he was such a threat to them. He wasn't coming off like a typical Democrat. Which is why they kept trying to paint him as 'the most liberal senator.'

    I do believe that Obama's more of a progressive than he is a liberal, though. And you're right, we have to watch the end-game to really see what he's made of.

    But I think there's a deeper issue going on with Republicans and Democrats. A lot of Republicans believe that a 'true Republican' is a hardcore conservative, anything less than that is a 'liberal.' And you have some Democrats who believe that a 'true Democrat' is a hardcore left liberal, and anything less than that is a problem. Both assumptions are wrong, because you can find liberals, moderates and conservatives in both parties.

    Now I haven't agreed with everything Obama's done, but I agree with you that he's getting shit done. He's not going to please everybody, but, then again, no president does. And people need to keep in mind that it took 8 years to get us in the clusterfuck that we're in, so it's going to take more than four months to get us out of it.

  7. #37
    Elite Member Cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    But I think there's a deeper issue going on with Republicans and Democrats. A lot of Republicans believe that a 'true Republican' is a hardcore conservative, anything less than that is a 'liberal.' And you have some Democrats who believe that a 'true Democrat' is a hardcore left liberal, and anything less than that is a problem. Both assumptions are wrong, because you can find liberals, moderates and conservatives in both parties.
    Very true.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    I get where you're coming from, Cali. But I don't think Obama is a deep-left liberal. I think he's liberal to some degree, but I don't think he's a hardcore liberal. The GOP picked up on that back in 2004, which is why he was such a threat to them. He wasn't coming off like a typical Democrat. Which is why they kept trying to paint him as 'the most liberal senator.'

    I do believe that Obama's more of a progressive than he is a liberal, though. And you're right, we have to watch the end-game to really see what he's made of.
    I think I used the wrong term- I don't think he's so much a deep-left liberal, as he is a new kind of liberal. He's interesting to me because he is a hybrid- he firmly holds strong to some of the more liberal aspects of our party, and then to some of the most conservative.

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    Elite Member bychance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    I get where you're coming from, Cali. But I don't think Obama is a deep-left liberal. I think he's liberal to some degree, but I don't think he's a hardcore liberal. The GOP picked up on that back in 2004, which is why he was such a threat to them. He wasn't coming off like a typical Democrat. Which is why they kept trying to paint him as 'the most liberal senator.'

    I do believe that Obama's more of a progressive than he is a liberal, though. And you're right, we have to watch the end-game to really see what he's made of.

    But I think there's a deeper issue going on with Republicans and Democrats. A lot of Republicans believe that a 'true Republican' is a hardcore conservative, anything less than that is a 'liberal.' And you have some Democrats who believe that a 'true Democrat' is a hardcore left liberal, and anything less than that is a problem. Both assumptions are wrong, because you can find liberals, moderates and conservatives in both parties.

    Now I haven't agreed with everything Obama's done, but I agree with you that he's getting shit done. He's not going to please everybody, but, then again, no president does. And people need to keep in mind that it took 8 years to get us in the clusterfuck that we're in, so it's going to take more than four months to get us out of it.
    THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

    I even remember a few pundits saying Obama should be a Republican, not a Democrat. Now all of a sudden when he runs for the presidency in 2008 is 'so far to the left'

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