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Thread: Illegal immigrants again in the budget spotlight

  1. #61
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Who the fuck are you talking about? People here? I see none of what you mention at all.

    Confine your crazy to where it belongs. It's not anti-mexican any more than bitching about Israeli brutality is anti semitic.

    Knee jerk crap like that is what keeps an honest debate from happening.. knee jerk vilification AND knee jerk victimization.
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  2. #62
    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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    and yeah so!? what can be done about it? as long as there are people striving for something better in their life this will happen! africans die in airplane wheel-wells all the time and Haitians drown in the atlantic weekly trying to get somewhere better. its how you react to the situation that matters. solutions would be great, but there's no turning back. and a lot of the reasons why the governments of latin america are so fucked up and make their people desperate to leave so bad (sometimes never returning to see their families again) are because of decades-long covert american govt. interests that run so deep there's nothing to be done anyways. thats why Bush never did anything about the border w/ Mexico, he knew better.

    the border's being secure would be great though, only b/c im scared of another terrorist attack on the country's soil, but as we all know, our security at the airports and the borders are a damn joke. but in a fantasy world it would be great to have secure borders and then make everyone a citizen who chooses to stay and pay taxes/fines/whatever. in a fantasy world though. that will never happens as long as ignorance, scapegoating and institutional racism still runs rampant.

  3. #63
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    *sighs*

    still hung up on that last bit. it's like talking to a wall.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Who the fuck are you talking about? People here? I see none of what you mention at all.

    Confine your crazy to where it belongs. It's not anti-mexican any more than bitching about Israeli brutality is anti semitic.

    Knee jerk crap like that is what keeps an honest debate from happening.. knee jerk vilification AND knee jerk victimization.
    You are very quick to call someone crazy, stupid. Why am I those things? Because I don't agree with you. I am a Mexican woman who lives in California, you are a white(?) man living in Canada and yet you still believe that I must be crazy or just stupid because I say that the "debate" has turned very anti-Mexican. I only speak from experience and I know what I live and see everyday.
    "If I have lost confidence in myself, I have the universe against me." --RW Emerson

  5. #65
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieMay View Post
    You are very quick to call someone crazy, stupid. Why am I those things? Because I don't agree with you.
    No, because you're saying stupid things and accusing people of being racist even though the statistics point to exactly what's being said in a non biased manner.

    Let's look at it this way:

    57% of illegal immigration is caused by polka dotted elephants. Is pointing out that 57% of the illegal immigration problem is being caused by polka dotted elephants mean people are being discriminatory towards polka dotted elephants?

    Does being an elephant with polka dots inherently mean you're an illegal immigrant?

    No, neither of those things. It's a statistic. It has no inherent bias.

    you can go right on accusing people of being discriminatory against polka dotted elephants all you want, but people will think you're nuts.

    I am a Mexican woman who lives in California, you are a white(?) man living in Canada and yet you still believe that I must be crazy or just stupid because I say that the "debate" has turned very anti-Mexican. I only speak from experience and I know what I live and see everyday.
    Oh im sorry, is this messageboard a microcosm of what you endure every day? Are the members here chasing you down the street with pitchforks and flames?

    No they aren't. If Mexicans are causing 57% of the illegal immigration problem (and it is a problem) then OBVIOUSLY most of the concentration on the issue will be against the 57% of illegal mexican immigrants!

    It wouldn't matter if it was mexicans, polka dotted elephants or clones of paris hilton! An identifiable group is an identifiable group, a statistic is a statistic. It doesn't mean people are anti-whatever, they're anti illegal immigration period and if mexicans make up the bulk of it then fucking obviously they're going to be pointed out!

    It's not freaking rocket science!
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  6. #66
    Elite Member MrsMarsters's Avatar
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    I must be racist also...being part hispanic. It does not have a damn thing to do with RACE AT ALL. READ. READ. It is about the fact that this nation is bankrupt and paying for illegal aliens sure as hell is not going to make anything better. ARE THEY the only problem? Heck, no. No one here I can honestly say is racist and would not make comments like that without getting banned. You are losing an argument, and yelling out the racist BS will not help at all. I have yet to hear a hispanic person say besides you..that this was a race issue.

    It is NOT ABOUT race. I honestly feel for those who are trying to make a better life for themselves and family, however they need to come here legally. It is a hard slap in the face to those who try or are trying to become citizens and they cannot, yet some illegal comes here and basically gets free hospital care, etc.

    Do not make this a race issue, because it isn't.

  7. #67
    Elite Member greysfang's Avatar
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    I'm 100% behind deporting Paris Hilton.
    FUCK YOU AND GIVE ME MY GODDAMN VENTI TWO PUMP LIGHT WHIP MOCHA YOU COCKSUCKING WHORE BEFORE I PUNCH YOU IN THE MOUTH. I just get unpleasant in my car. - Deej

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  8. #68
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    ^^Add Nicole Richie, Lauren Conrad, Kim K, and the other celebutards to the list. PLEASE!


    Pointing out that MEXICANS make up the largest percentage of those here ILLEGALLY is racist? WTF! Then call me a racist, because Mexico and Central America are the heart of the problem. I'm sure we have some Jamaican, Canadian, French, English, Japanese, etc illegals, but the hispanic illegals are estimated to number about 10-30 million, depending on the source. That is approximately 3-10 percent of this nation's total population. Those numbers could easily be higher, since illegals aren't identifying themselves to assist in an accurate count.

    Some estimates regarding the percentage of illegals coming here from 2000 onward who are of Mexican heritage are between 50 and 75 fucking percent. Yea, that is a serious fucking problem.

    Why is the race card being played? This is not racism or xenophobia. If it were Canadians hopping fences at millions per year, I would still support throwing them out. Lily white to jet black, if your ass is here illegally, you don't belong here.



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Yes, lets put this into perspective.

    "Hi, im coming into your country illegally. Im going to pop out a few kids, live on welfare, and rape your social systems while giving nothing back. I'm not going to bother learning your language or joining your society, i'm just going to sit here and suck as much money as i can out of it, and if you have a problem with it you can go fuck yourself."

    Generally when you move to another country, you do your best to integrate yourself into it.. you learn the native language, observe its customs but retain your cultural identity so you can share it with your new home. That's what diversity is. Not coming in, planting yourself down, refusing to integrate and then getting pissy with people when they have a problem with it.

    It's not about keeping anything WHITE, you are so obsessed with that point! It's asinine! YOu think anybody who has a problem with illegals abusing systems is a racist. LOL Are we all racist against every ethnicity then? I thought we were just against mexicans? Make up your damn mind.

    It's not freaking racism or xenophobia. It's about what's right, what's legal, and what's the correct way to come to a new country so as to not burden the citizens who are already there.

    They aren't fucking refugees from a warzone granted asylum for fucks sake.
    But there aren't any statistics in this post; this is a stereotype. Some illegals do take advantage of the system, but it's not true that the bulk of illegals don't give anything back. See the more valid stats posted from snopes above-- a reasonable and nonstereotypical discussion of the issue. As others have pointed out, the federal govt through the collection of social security taxes that workers can never collect has probably benefited from undocumented workers. It can be argued that it needs to pass on those funds to CA, TX, etc.
    Also in many ways the system is designed as a trap for illegals, many of the illegals who seek out social services do so because they have lost the work ( or its seasonal) that they came here to do; employers need them only sometimes or the economy has taken a downturn or they've not been paid by employers (because they are illegal). In order, to keep out the, as some here put it, "sows" and "bitches" then we must first punish corporations and individuals who profit from undocumented workers ( and they do know they are undocumented). Otherwise, we will continue to have the problem of out of work illegals who--for whatever reason--become unemployed or unemployable and need the system. We will never punish these corporations and individuals and they won't stop hiring, because they want the cheap labor--just not the attendant all-too-human issues that come along with it. If you have workers, then you need social services for them. To deny those services is to turn others into machines-- who can be trashed when we've gotten all that we want from them. And yes, I know many people here don't directly hire illegals, but we eat the food that they process ( chicken processing plants such as Tyson) and pick, the shirts that they make in sweatshops, and yes, the number one private employer in the US, Wal-Mart has been known to hire illegals. So we eat this food and wear the clothing, but then when they want to procreate, suddenly they are animals (sows) we don't owe anything.

    The stereotyping seems unjust to me and not the way to solve our problems. In the 80s, Ronald Reagan circulated-- it was already apart of the nation's racial belief system-- the "Welfare Queen" image in the United States; it was an inherently racialized image designed as part of a plan to scare whites into thinking that the Democrats didn't care for white working class males--only black welfare breeding "sows" who were exploiting the system. The woman given as an example had like a hundred children, no education, was generally a bitch with too many babydaddy. All the facts about welfare ( only at the time about 4% of the budget and certainly not responsible for the recession of the 1970s) had no power in the face of this stereotype. But we lived happily ever after anyway until . . . .our neoliberal kingdom experienced its next economic downturn.

  10. #70
    Elite Member greysfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heartlessstone View Post
    As others have pointed out, the federal govt through the collection of social security taxes that workers can never collect has probably benefited from undocumented workers. It can be argued that it needs to pass on those funds to CA, TX, etc.
    Really? Undocumented workers are having social security taken out of their checks? How does that happen when they have no social security or green card number? Outright fallacy.
    FUCK YOU AND GIVE ME MY GODDAMN VENTI TWO PUMP LIGHT WHIP MOCHA YOU COCKSUCKING WHORE BEFORE I PUNCH YOU IN THE MOUTH. I just get unpleasant in my car. - Deej

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  11. #71
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Also in many ways the system is designed as a trap for illegals, many of the illegals who seek out social services do so because they have lost the work ( or its seasonal) that they came here to do; employers need them only sometimes or the economy has taken a downturn or they've not been paid by employers (because they are illegal). In order, to keep out the, as some here put it, "sows" and "bitches" then we must first punish corporations and individuals who profit from undocumented workers ( and they do know they are undocumented). Otherwise, we will continue to have the problem of out of work illegals who--for whatever reason--become unemployed or unemployable and need the system. We will never punish these corporations and individuals and they won't stop hiring, because they want the cheap labor--just not the attendant all-too-human issues that come along with it. If you have workers, then you need social services for them. To deny those services is to turn others into machines-- who can be trashed when we've gotten all that we want from them. And yes, I know many people here don't directly hire illegals, but we eat the food that they process ( chicken processing plants such as Tyson) and pick, the shirts that they make in sweatshops, and yes, the number one private employer in the US, Wal-Mart has been known to hire illegals. So we eat this food and wear the clothing, but then when they want to procreate, suddenly they are animals (sows) we don't owe anything.


    I do agree companies who knowingly hire illegals should face punishment, but..

    If an illegal immigrant becomes unemployed, why should they receive anything from the very system they are avoiding?

    Yes, legal workers need the system. The reasons why these criminals refuse to go through the proper channels can be listed, but it doesn't change the fact they are here illegally, thus don't deserve any aid of any kind for any reason. Those who come here and won't even be bothered to work definitely don't deserve housing and food stamps.

    The SS tax argument has serious holes. If a worker is undocumented and is known to be here illegally, exactly how is that reported by the business? The SS taxes being deducted from paychecks would have to be coming from someone with a TIN, so either the business is supplying them falsely or the immigrant is using one illegally. SS taxes, every cent, have to be attached to a TIN of some sort. Second, the whole purpose of using illegal labor is to pay less than a citizen would have to receive, which is minimum wage or a salary. Worker's pay can be calculated from the SS taxes collected, so a company is risking breaking a law, and providing proof of the crime if they are paying illegals less than minimum wage and reporting it. Third, and related to the wage issue, is that SS taxes, assuming they were collected on a worker with a TIN number and working for less than minimum wage, would be quite low per person. Thirteen percent of 200 dollars, five dollars per 40 hours of work, would be 26 dollars per week. How does that compare to the woman receiving at least 600 dollars per month in aid? A bit of a gap there isn't there?

    As much as I hate to say this, this is one issue I agree with conservatives on. We need stricter immigration control and methods to prevent them from obtaining any type of assistance from city, county, state, and federal agencies.



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    Quote Originally Posted by greysfang View Post
    Really? Undocumented workers are having social security taken out of their checks? How does that happen when they have no social security or green card number? Outright fallacy.
    Snopes--again-- is helpful here--but there are lots of other sources as well for this information.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/petition.asp

    If you scroll down, the relvant part is the 2008 report from SS officials that states that illegals actually benefit the SS trust fund. According to the report, in 2005, illegals paid 7 billion that year alone in Social Security funds. Other ests. say that as many as 3/4 of illegals pay SS taxes. Also, of course, they pay sales tax.

  13. #73
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    The SS tax argument has serious holes. If a worker is undocumented and is known to be here illegally, exactly how is that reported by the business? The SS taxes being deducted from paychecks would have to be coming from someone with a TIN, so either the business is supplying them falsely or the immigrant is using one illegally. SS taxes, every cent, have to be attached to a TIN of some sort. Second, the whole purpose of using illegal labor is to pay less than a citizen would have to receive, which is minimum wage or a salary. Worker's pay can be calculated from the SS taxes collected, so a company is risking breaking a law, and providing proof of the crime if they are paying illegals less than minimum wage and reporting it. Third, and related to the wage issue, is that SS taxes, assuming they were collected on a worker with a TIN number and working for less than minimum wage, would be quite low per person. Thirteen percent of 200 dollars, five dollars per 40 hours of work, would be 26 dollars per week. How does that compare to the woman receiving at least 600 dollars per month in aid? A bit of a gap there isn't there?
    Social Security cards and numbers aren't that hard to fake.

  14. #74
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    I 100% disagree with illegal immigration. Fine/jail all employers of illegal immigrants, cut off all their benefits, stop giving citizenship to children of illegals. If illegals can't survive here, they will be forced to repatriate themselves. If we need guest workers, we can discuss that in the future. But I 100% disagree with rewarding illegal behavior (i.e. giving them citizenship.)

    When there is a 9+% unemployment rate in this nation, I can't believe there are still people defending the presence of illegals in this nation. (In my home state, it is OVER 15%, YET there are STILL illegals stealing jobs from citizens.) How many people could we get off the unemployment/welfare rolls if they could work the jobs illegals are currently working? In my home state, high school kids worked the fast food, summer lawn mowing jobs, etc. But now these kids can't get work, because the illegals are taking these jobs full-time.

    I'm sick of the excuses for the illegals' behavior. We have bad trade agreements that have negatively affected the poor and middle classes in this country. Yet, you don't see our citizens hopping the border to become a burden on citizens of another nation. These illegals pay very little in taxes. They can't - they work low paying jobs because of their immigration status and (usually) total lack of education or skills. They aren't paying their fair share - they are using way more in services than they are contributing to the system - and that's why people are ticked.

    All I know is that when I see a group of people who enter this country ILLEGALLY stealing from US citizens and destroying the quality of life for legal residents, I get ticked off. I love this country, and I don't want my children to grow up in the type of society illegal immigrants are creating.

    P.S. For the people advocating for illegals, do you think we should have totally open borders? Let everybody in the world who wants to come to our country immigrate here? We can't do that - we would be destroyed in a short peroid of time. That's why there are limits on immigration. It's not only supposed to benefit the immigrants, but the country and residents already living there. IMO, illegal immigrants have turned immigration into a net negative for this country. We can't just allow millions of uneducated people to come live here on humanitarian grounds. We need people with skills who will add to this country's prosperity, not drain the system as illegals are.

  15. #75
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    They aren't stealing jobs, they're given jobs at a much lower pay rate so corporations and companies save money at the expense of society.

    The illegals should be booted out, and the corporations should be made to pay a living wage.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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