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Thread: How Barack Obama undermined the Obama presidency. A long read.

  1. #16
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    Uh, I guess you didn't hear about Barry LYING about the stimulus job creation numbers eh? Of course not. The numbers were wildly inflated, and the stimulus wasn't near enough to combat what was going on. The economy is going to dive again in about half a year.
    You sound so much like a teabagger!

    President Obama did not lie about job creation numbers.

    I agree that the stimulus bill should have been bigger, but what was done has helped tremendously - most economists (including Krugman) say so.

    Whether Copenhagen is a success or a failure has little bearing on the actual environmental and energy policy changes that have been enacted under this adminstration.

  2. #17
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visitor42 View Post
    You sound so much like a teabagger!
    Um no. Teabaggers hate Obama because he's black. I have disagreements with policy and position. Only an Obamabot would try to equate the two.

    President Obama did not lie about job creation numbers.
    His whole administration did.

    I agree that the stimulus bill should have been bigger, but what was done has helped tremendously - most economists (including Krugman) say so.
    Uh, Krugman was the one saying "Not enough by a longshot".


    Whether Copenhagen is a success or a failure has little bearing on the actual environmental and energy policy changes that have been enacted under this adminstration.
    Given that it would be part and parcel of said policy, and that it failed miserably largely in part because the international community doesn't respect Obama (his jetting in, trying to whizbang them, and jetting out) and rejected his mere stopover efforts, if they can even be deemed as such.

    Good lord, how much apologizing can you do for the guy in flagrant violation of reality?
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  3. #18
    Elite Member Shinola's Avatar
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    I for one agree that so far, Obama is a big disappointment, and I think the article is pretty spot-on: a leader has to lead. A leader doesn't step back and wait for other people to make something happen--he or she has to work damned hard to push things through. Leading is not a hands-off job.

    Sorry to say it, and it's easy to say it, but I think Hillary Clinton would've been a much better president and always did, and I was very disappointed when Obama beat her for the nomination, even though he seemed to have a slightly better shot at winning the presidency. My worry was that if he didn't prove to be a strong leader, he would totally fuck over the whole Democratic Party. And here we go ...
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  4. #19
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Hillary Clinton, the woman with ties to "The Family", and who said she was "misled" into the Iraq war?

    She's a liar or an idiot, and as big a corporatist as Obama. The whole US system is beyond corrupt, and has been that way ever since corporations earned personhood and all the rights that went along with it.

    Frankly, who cares if the Democratic party gets fucked over, it's just one half of the 2 headed hydra that is controlled by the conglomerates.

    The whole system needs to be junked and rethought.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    How? I mean, besides the lack of LOLs from Failin' Palin.

    Obama is basically continuing everything Bush did.
    I knew that Obama would do so when I voted for him. As much as people like to act like Bush was a total moron (which indeed he was) the president of the United States is not a dictator. In my opinion there is always more behind the scenes than we know of. As soon as Obama won he turned around on his promises about the war.

    In my experience Obama being the first black president trumps pretty much anything else I want from him. I know a lot of people feel that this is a wrong attitude to have but for me as a white person I like the fact that we've crossed that line. I also like the fact that young girls who were in grade school when Obama won, will grow up with his daughters in the White House.

    I didn't read the article but I think that over the last 10 years there's been this sort of divisive energy that the president is in control of the country. He's not. The people are in control and we might be lazy and uninvolved but the general life experience for many Americans right now is just making ends meet.

    I don't know what I'm trying to say except I think that the reason Obama won was because he represented Hope. In a lot of ways he was healing some of the racial issues that got pushed aside when 911 happened. I don't really much care what he does while he's in office. My only hope is that he does something worthy of being reelected. It would be a shame if he was in and out and then the momentum of change was lost.

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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Yeah, who cares if he basically continues the horrors of the last admin.. he's black! That's worth it.

    *head bangs on desk*

    Secondly, you didn't read the article? Fucking read the article! Wtf is the point of commenting if you're not going to actually read what the thread is about.

    also,

    I don't really much care what he does while he's in office. My only hope is that he does something worthy of being reelected.
    There is so much wrong with this i don't know where to start.
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    I'm commenting on the constant whining about presidents. They are simply figureheads. They don't make the laws, they don't really change the country as much as people seem to think they do.

    Bush didn't cause the war to happen and drag people kicking and screaming along the way. Palin isn't forcing her popularity down people's throats, the fact remains is that people are the problem, not presidents. I know plenty of people who think Palin is great.

    It's by the people for the people of the people or something like that. I really don't get the hysterical hissy fits that people throw at presidents blaming them for not running the country the way you personally think it ought to be done.

    Unfortunately, as evidenced by Bush winning a second term, they really do represent the people. I didn't read the article because it's pointless to pretend the president is at fault for the will of the people.

    The horrors of the last administration were going to be continued. You really thought it was Bush that did it? That's what you thought? That once Bush left everything would change? You thought Bush was the one pulling the strings? That is too funny.

    Come on now.

    And I agree with your frustration of my opinion. I know it's wrong for a lot of reasons. I'm just being honest with you. I have yet to see a president that I think does a job I can admire. Not one. I am more concerned about the other players in the game. The president is just a figure head to me. And I freely admit that symbolically having a Black President is more valuable to me than pretty much anything else he can do after that.

  8. #23
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinola View Post
    I for one agree that so far, Obama is a big disappointment, and I think the article is pretty spot-on: a leader has to lead. A leader doesn't step back and wait for other people to make something happen--he or she has to work damned hard to push things through. Leading is not a hands-off job.

    Sorry to say it, and it's easy to say it, but I think Hillary Clinton would've been a much better president and always did, and I was very disappointed when Obama beat her for the nomination, even though he seemed to have a slightly better shot at winning the presidency. My worry was that if he didn't prove to be a strong leader, he would totally fuck over the whole Democratic Party. And here we go ...
    You do realize that as Secretary of State, Hillary plays a major role in the Obama Administration. As president, the buck stops with Obama and he's definitely made his mistakes. But Hillary supporters seem to only blast Obama and never toss any blame toward Hillary. And if Obama's such a shitty leader then what does that say about Hillary since she chose to work for him and push his policies after repeatedly saying he wasn't ready to be president?

    And let's not forget Hillary saying she was under sniper fire in Bosnia to show she had foreign policy credentials. That was almost as bad as Palin talking about Alaska's proximity to Russia.

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    ^^^ Agreed.

  10. #25
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    1) Presidents aren't mere figureheads, there are 3 levels of government. Legislative, Judicial, and Executive. Each holds a certain amount of sway. Given that the president at any given time is also the LEADER of their particular party, they have considerable sway, depending on their leadership style. Presidents cannot enact policy on their own, but they can help form, push, and create the policy.

    2) Palin is a retard and appeals to the retards, nuff said about that.

    3) Again, Presidents DO have a certain amount of authority and sway that can be used to great effect. People getting pissed off at Obama for campaigning on issues he then does NOT fight for is legitimate. That is what the article is about.

    4) You need to read the article because the article isn't about the will of the people or whatever the hell you said. Till you read the damn article, you're talking out your ass.

    5) Yes, Bush and his cronies enacted a vast, VAST expansion of executive powers (although you say the president can't do anything, which is fucking ludicrous) aided and abetted by most of the Democratic party and 100% of Republicans. Bush was the lever puller supported by Cheney and Rove, 2 shitfucks from the Nixon era, and supplemented with Rumsfeld.

    7) The president is not just a figurehead, that's patently idiotic.

    K, people, really. Read the articles before farting in threads or else you end up talking about crap that isn't even on topic. Eesh.
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  11. #26
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    Grimmlok for you I went and read the article and I've thought of something. What people seem to be calling "laizzes faire" type of leadership is something that I think falls into the way Obama has always presented himself. He's asked people to take up their civic responsibility and help lead the country themselves. This is supposed to be how this country is run, not in partisan leadership.

    I think that although the reality of such expectations leaves people feeling adrift, it is a step in the right direction.

    As far as "the president" goes, think of Proposition 8. The people voted for this into office. I think personally a lot of people have been able to hide and scapegoat Bush for the flaws of this country.

    The laissez faire attitude of the people is the problem. We are no better than the Germans in WWII who just "let things happen" and acted bewildered in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    1) Presidents aren't mere figureheads, there are 3 levels of government. Legislative, Judicial, and Executive. Each holds a certain amount of sway. Given that the president at any given time is also the LEADER of their particular party, they have considerable sway, depending on their leadership style. Presidents cannot enact policy on their own, but they can help form, push, and create the policy.

    Yes they can and he is doing that with the Health Care Policies. He's also confronted with a huge mess from the former administration. He's also trying to rebuild our relationship with the world.


    2) Palin is a retard and appeals to the retards, nuff said about that.

    Retards are often voters.

    3) Again, Presidents DO have a certain amount of authority and sway that can be used to great effect. People getting pissed off at Obama for campaigning on issues he then does NOT fight for is legitimate. That is what the article is about.

    Obama has always said that we as a country need to lead this country.
    Barack Obama's Victory Speech - Election Results 2008 - The New York Times

    4) You need to read the article because the article isn't about the will of the people or whatever the hell you said. Till you read the damn article, you're talking out your ass.

    I did read the article but I've also read people's bitching and complaining about presidents for the last 10 years, You'd think eventually they would realize they've got fucked up expectations? How long have you been bitching about presidents? What do you want to happen?


    5) Yes, Bush and his cronies enacted a vast, VAST expansion of executive powers (although you say the president can't do anything, which is fucking ludicrous) aided and abetted by most of the Democratic party and 100% of Republicans. Bush was the lever puller supported by Cheney and Rove, 2 shitfucks from the Nixon era, and supplemented with Rumsfeld.

    You swizzed past the "aided and abetted. Exactly my point.

    7) The president is not just a figurehead, that's patently idiotic.

    The president is a figurehead of the people. I think what I'm trying to say to you is that you really have a problem with the American people. It's just become par for the course to blame the president for the people.

    K, people, really. Read the articles before farting in threads or else you end up talking about crap that isn't even on topic. Eesh.
    It is on topic to comment on the constant barrage of whining about presidents that to me has been a pervasive and inadequate "soundtrack" over the last decade. I don't get it.

  13. #28
    Elite Member Shinola's Avatar
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    I do agree that the United States is currently a corporate fascist nation rather than a true democracy. I'm not sure how dismantling the system will repair that, although it is true that our constitution is an old document and that newer democratic constitutions have improved on the model greatly. And I wish that we had a system with multiple viable political parties. I think the possibility of the U.S. system being entirely rebuilt is zero, unless the nation is somehow destroyed first, and obvs as a U.S. citizen, I'd rather not live through that. If there is a way to rid this country of corporate influence over government, I'd like to know how, because it's ruining us.

    As for Hillary, true, she might have sucked. However, she actually seems to be doing a good job as Secretary of State. Keep in mind what the job is; she has no power whatsoever over most of the matters that have Americans so disgruntled right now. I just read a list of what she's been working on so far in her job, and it seems to me that she has been proactive and tenacious in her current work. Maybe she would've been a shitty president, too, although I do think she would've sucked less than Obama.
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  14. #29
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    Obama and Hillary were aligned on a lot of the same key issues, especially when it came to the wars. Which is why the race for the nomination came down to the wire. Ultimately it became about their character. So, I don't think we would've seen too much difference policy-wise if Hillary had become president.

    One of my big issues with Obama is that he wasted too much time trying to work with Republicans who didn't want to work with him. Hillary wouldn't have done that. But Hillary would've been constantly complaining about the amount of sexism that she was getting like she did during the campaign. Obama hasn't complained about any racism being thrown his way. So, they both have their pros and cons, personality-wise.

    Now, I still don't trust Hillary after some of the stunts she pulled in the primaries. But I do think she's been doing a pretty good job as SOS. And as long as she doesn't create any waves I won't have a real issue with her.

  15. #30
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Yes they can and he is doing that with the Health Care Policies.
    He hasn't done anything on the health care front except try to kill any kind of public option or cost controls. He handed it off to 3 blue dogs and 3 rethugs who did their best to kill the PO. Then he trotted out his bitches to say that anybody who wanted a PO was crazy 'left of the left' whackos. Then he courted Snowe and Lieberman to try and kill it.. then he sent Rahm out to Harry Reid to make ANY kind of deal no matter how shitty, or how much was compromised to do it. He doesn't give a crap about GOOD legislation, he just wants a "win" in his list of accomplishments. So, amazingly, the "can't do anything, has no power" president seems to do quite a bit when it suits him.

    He's also confronted with a huge mess from the former administration.
    And yet, amazingly, he hired the very same people who CAUSED the mess to sort it out, and who continue the very same economic stupidities that saw the US almost crumble not too long ago. NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN THIS REGARD.

    He's also trying to rebuild our relationship with the world.
    The world sees him as an effete buffoon who can't accomplish anything because of his laissez faire non-leadership. That's beginning to be a problem. They like him because he's nicer than Bush, but don't put any stock in him at all.

    Obama has always said that we as a country need to lead this country.
    Yes, and the country did that by electing him and his bitches to run the fucking country. That's what they're there for. To run it. That's why they're paid the big bucks, why they're in DC, why they get elected.

    The ordinary citizen voted to elect officials who do the running of the country.

    I did read the article but I've also read people's bitching and complaining about presidents for the last 10 years, You'd think eventually they would realize they've got fucked up expectations? How long have you been bitching about presidents? What do you want to happen?
    Well a big fat start would be to actually keep the election platform they ran on, instead of doing a 180. Bush kept most of what he promised, and managed to get it done with less house members and senators than the Dems have now. Yes, it was horrid, evil and stupid, but he got it done.

    You swizzed past the "aided and abetted. Exactly my point.
    No, I mentioned it because they are, like right now, complicit in the same horrors continuing.. horrors they campaigned to end, amazingly.

    The president is a figurehead of the people. I think what I'm trying to say to you is that you really have a problem with the American people. It's just become par for the course to blame the president for the people.
    No, that's what you're saying. I'm talking about the policies of President Obama. The president is an elected official who said some pretty things and has backtracked on most of it. The people voted for the pretty things. The pretty things have not happened and most likely will not happen. I suppose the people can share some measure of blame for what could loosely be termed "mass delusion" for actually believing in their democratic process, but that's another argument.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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