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Thread: Hillary can't attack McCain on Iraq war, or attacking Iran.. cuz she voted for both

  1. #31
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gas_chick View Post
    The way I understand it Obama was not a member of the Senate at the time of the vote.

    This is correct. Obama was not a member of the US Senate when the vote was made. The only candidate for President that cast a vote against the war was Ron Paul.

    Since Obama has been a member of the US Senate, he has voted exactly the same on all votes pertaining to the Iraq war as Hillary Clinton.
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  2. #32
    Elite Member gas_chick's Avatar
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    Thank you witchcurlgirl!

  3. #33
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    ok, so at the time he was not part of the senate, thus could not vote for authorizing the war, or against it. gotcha.

    But since then he's voted for all the funding to continue it? I guess under the logic of 'supporting the troops' or some other crap?

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  4. #34
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gas_chick View Post
    No a mistake and being misled. No one is perfect. A lot of people who initially voted for the war regret it now. Not saying it doesn't matter but the past is past and it can't be undone now. Let's move on and straighten the situation out now.
    But here's where the problem comes in for Hillary. Her entire campaign against Obama is that she's much more experienced and has better judgement. Voting for the war, which was clearly a mistake, calls that experience and judgement into question. And Hillary saying that she was 'misled' doesn't change the fact that she exercised bad judgement. It just shows that she refuses to take responsibility for her choices like John Edwards and John Kerry did when they said they made a mistake voting for the war.

    And what makes it even worse, is that she refuses to admit that she made a mistake, or that the war itself was a mistake. Not to mention, she wants us to have permanent military bases in a country that we illegally invaded, to begin with. So, Hillary can claim that she's against the war, but her words and actions are saying otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    This is correct. Obama was not a member of the US Senate when the vote was made. The only candidate for President that cast a vote against the war was Ron Paul.

    Since Obama has been a member of the US Senate, he has voted exactly the same on all votes pertaining to the Iraq war as Hillary Clinton.
    Obama voting to fund the war isn't the same as Hillary voting to go to war to begin with. I don't even hold Hillary responsible for funding the war. And what else were they suppose to do? Say no I don't want the troops to have the equipment or get paid? Yeah, that would go over real well.

  5. #35
    Elite Member gas_chick's Avatar
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    King I get what you are saying but I'm still voting for Hillary just like you are still voting for Obama. I think that Obama and Hillary both should quit talking about the beginning of the war and just focus on getting us out.

  6. #36
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    I think they should do both.
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  7. #37
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gas_chick View Post
    King I get what you are saying but I'm still voting for Hillary just like you are still voting for Obama. I think that Obama and Hillary both should quit talking about the beginning of the war and just focus on getting us out.
    I agree with you. But my point was that how can Hillary claim that she's looking to end the war when she can't even admit that the war was a mistake to begin with?

  8. #38
    Elite Member sluce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Um, the people polled said Saddam caused 9/11 and that's why they supported the stupid Iraq war. That's just sheer stupidity. It's not being blinded by anything, it's not thinking for themselves. How is it hindsight when the rest of the planet knew the whole thing was a crock?
    The rest of the world did not know the "intelligence" being touted was a crock. That is why so many other countries jumped in and sent troops too. The US was not the only country that wanted that oil!

  9. #39
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    LOL what countries? Oh the 'coalition of the willing' ?

    Most of them were PAID in some way, be it aid or promises of aid or just cash. I mean, new Europe? romania? some other countries ending in 'stan'? Poland, for gods sake.

    France, Germany, Italy, Canada, and most of the MAJOR nations said "fuck that, you're nuts". The only reason Australia even bothered is, because like England, they were hoping to reap some benefit out of being US lapdogs and were run by arch-conservative Bush asskissers.

    Most of them have left, or left years ago anyway when they figured they wouldn't be getting anything out of it but acrimony and dead soldiers.

    As for the rest of the world knowing the intelligence presented was a crock, you're damn right they did. UN weapons inspectors saying "there's nothing in Iraq but rusting tanks from 1991", that Nigerian yellowcake nonsense, those aluminum tubes, the changing rationales for going in, and the massive protests against it?

    Again, if i, everyone i knew, and everyone i talked to online around the world could figure it out, major media publications NOT in the US could figure it out, then i mean.. there's really no argument that people "didn't know".

    it's just a lot of people in the US didn't bother looking closely at the information presented, didn't question the whole "saddam caused 9/11!" crap Bush was pulling (and everybody SHOULD have), so in the end, that was vastly vastly lazy and stupid.

    I absolutely and categorically reject the idea that people were "fooled" because the lies were so good. That's such a cop-out, it's a total rejection of any responsibility. The lies were transparent and fell apart the minute you looked at them beyond a soundbite glance.

    Sure it's probably ridiculously embarrassing for the people who made this thing happen, but honestly, they need to come to terms with their ineptitude and stop with the "we were blinded and fooled by the best lie EVAR IMAGINED BY HOOMAN BEANS" crap.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  10. #40
    Elite Member gas_chick's Avatar
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    I'll say again that if it happened in your own backyard you might understand better. Most Americans were shocked and wanted someone to pay. After the red leaves your eyes, you can see a lot clearer and I"m sorry but outsiders can always see better than the people going through it.

  11. #41
    Elite Member Dixie Normos's Avatar
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    "Obama voting to fund the war isn't the same as Hillary voting to go to war to begin with. I don't even hold Hillary responsible for funding the war. And what else were they suppose to do? Say no I don't want the troops to have the equipment or get paid? Yeah, that would go over real well. "

    Hillary votes for war to start = war
    Obama votes for war funding = war

    Their timing may have been different, but the results are still the same.
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  12. #42
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gas_chick View Post
    I'll say again that if it happened in your own backyard you might understand better.
    It did happen in my own backyard, America is canada's backyard and the other way around. I was as shocked as any and said "good for them" when Amrica smacked the Taliban back to the stone age. That was just (provided the whole Osama bin laden thing is real, but let's assume it is) and measured.

    Most Americans were shocked and wanted someone to pay.
    Someone did pay, the Taliban. The Iraq war happened like a year and half after. Iraq had nothing to do with it, and didn't come into the equation until AFTER that had been taken care of.

    After the red leaves your eyes, you can see a lot clearer and I"m sorry but outsiders can always see better than the people going through it.
    Going through it 2 years later and taking it out on a part of the world that had nothing to do with the original American led retaliation? That's just reinforces the fact that it was stupid.

    Bush tried to connect 9/11 to Iraq and people were either dumb enough to fall for it given the flimsy lies that everyone else saw through, or just wanted to enjoy the "America, fuck yeah!" attitude.

    2 years should be quite enough for even the dimmest person to figure out that Bush was lying through his teeth. Lots did, and millions protested all over the world. Still not buying the "it was so traumatic that 2 years later our brains still weren't working well enough to see through Bush's lies even though the rest of the planet was saying WAKE UP"
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  13. #43
    Elite Member gas_chick's Avatar
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    I'm sorry that many Americans were stupid and fell for it. I know there were many that didn't but I gotta admit I was one that did and didn't look too closely at what was really going on. My point is the past is past and let's move on. Elect someone who has a plan to get out. I'm not sure what rehasing it over and over does to help anything. Just do something.

  14. #44
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie Normos View Post
    "Obama voting to fund the war isn't the same as Hillary voting to go to war to begin with. I don't even hold Hillary responsible for funding the war. And what else were they suppose to do? Say no I don't want the troops to have the equipment or get paid? Yeah, that would go over real well. "

    Hillary votes for war to start = war
    Obama votes for war funding = war

    Their timing may have been different, but the results are still the same.
    If Hillary and others had never voted for the war, then there wouldn't have been anything for Obama and Hillary to fund. So, how is that the same? Without one, you wouldn't have the other.

    And if Obama hadn't voted to fund the war, nothing would have changed, and he'd be called 'unpatriotic' like he's being now for not wearing a flag pin.

  15. #45
    Elite Member *DIVA!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sluce View Post
    The rest of the world did not know the "intelligence" being touted was a crock. That is why so many other countries jumped in and sent troops too. The US was not the only country that wanted that oil!
    Actually, a lot of people who heard those bs intelligence reports vis the news..new it was bs. The ones who didn't jump into this illegal war, were called enemies of America, the exile's of evil etc... No the US didn't invade Iraq for the oil...BUSH and CHENEY invaded Iraq for the oil, and to help their pockets after they leave office... HALLIBURTON!!! No bid contracts...

    All Hillary had to do was listen to the opposition to the Iraq War, which led to an outing of a CIA agent!!
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