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Thread: Gaza complicates Barack Obama's policy in Mideast

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    http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jdw/jdw010522_2_n.shtml

    The Israel Defence Force (IDF) is using tank-fired flechette anti-personnel rounds in its conflict with Palestinian militants

    When a flechette round explodes it spews thousands of tiny metal darts which cut their victims to shreds. They are illegal.




    The first image is of a white phosphorus test shell;
    these were taken in Gaza the other day.





    The Geneva Treaty of 1980 stipulates that white phosphorus should not be used as a weapon of war in civilian areas,

    White phosphorus weapons cause horrific burns, broiling victims from the inside out.


    Qassam rockets:


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    Elite Member ana-mish-ana's Avatar
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    There was similar reports that white phosphorous was used in the Lebanese war as well- on top of the clusterbombs that are still live in southern Lebonan
    I doubt nothing will be done about this either because Israel didnt face any censure over the use of these weapons.

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    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Yeah, and thats a way of making sure innocent civilians don't die unnecessarily
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

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    It makes me really angry..when NATO nuked Serbia we could smell the stuff in here..all vegetables were spoiled too.
    Meanwhile,babies are dying and our civilized societies are watching..
    "Effie is all kinds of awesome." - Some internet moderator


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    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Yeah but Effie you know, I was thinking about this last night...I think sometimes with all the evil in the world, most people tend to disassociate unless it either effects them in some way, or they can identify with the dying and/or dead. I think most people who are ambivalent feel nothing personally towards the Palestinians, because they don't see a blonde haired, blue eyed little girl, or because they see a veiled woman instead of a generic PTA mother. Its incredibly sad to me because these human rights violations have been going on from way before this latest act of violence. I cannot imagine living in Gaza and having every single personal liberty and freedom only at the mercy of someone else. I can't imagine not having the freedom of travel, to see my relatives, to have to ration your food every day, all of your hard earned work going to support yourself and all your neighbors so you don't starve, etc. Can anyone here imagine doctors working on thousands of people solely by the light of their mobile phones? Thats whats happening right now. Its really incredibly heartbreaking. Most people see 130 children as nothing but a number, but imagine that as almost 3 full Greyhound buses.The other night I was watching a dead child on a stretcher and his father was crying and kissing his forehead and stroking his hair and telling him (from what I understood) that he would be with him soon, that he was so sorry. That single scene has stayed with me until now, I can't shake it. I also saw a picture of a mother and her three children at the morgue, the two small bloodied children were laying on her chest. I thought, what if these people were of European descent and were attractive and wealthy, there inevitably would be a different response then, there would be outrage.
    Women ain't gonna let a thing like sense fuck up their argument. - Chris Rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    Yeah but Effie you know, I was thinking about this last night...I think sometimes with all the evil in the world, most people tend to disassociate unless it either effects them in some way, or they can identify with the dying and/or dead. I think most people who are ambivalent feel nothing personally towards the Palestinians, because they don't see a blonde haired, blue eyed little girl, or because they see a veiled woman instead of a generic PTA mother. Its incredibly sad to me because these human rights violations have been going on from way before this latest act of violence. I cannot imagine living in Gaza and having every single personal liberty and freedom only at the mercy of someone else. I can't imagine not having the freedom of travel, to see my relatives, to have to ration your food every day, all of your hard earned work going to support yourself and all your neighbors so you don't starve, etc. Can anyone here imagine doctors working on thousands of people solely by the light of their mobile phones? Thats whats happening right now. Its really incredibly heartbreaking. Most people see 130 children as nothing but a number, but imagine that as almost 3 full Greyhound buses.The other night I was watching a dead child on a stretcher and his father was crying and kissing his forehead and stroking his hair and telling him (from what I understood) that he would be with him soon, that he was so sorry. That single scene has stayed with me until now, I can't shake it. I also saw a picture of a mother and her three children at the morgue, the two small bloodied children were laying on her chest. I thought, what if these people were of European descent and were attractive and wealthy, there inevitably would be a different response then, there would be outrage.
    See,everytime i get to threads like this,Butt,s ciggie comes to mind..
    You need to travel,to leave your comfort zone..then you might be able to realize what exactly is going on in the world around you.
    I am banned from watching tv news in here,my ulcer is flaming and i really cant cope with the images..i stay away from some excellent blogs too..its so heartbreaking..
    "Effie is all kinds of awesome." - Some internet moderator


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    Unforgivable.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/middleeast/09redcross.html?_r=1

    By ALAN COWELL
    Published: January 8, 2009
    PARIS — The International Committee of the Red Cross said Thursday it had discovered “shocking” scenes — including small children next to their mothers’ corpses — when its representatives gained access for the first time to parts of Gaza battered by Israeli shelling. It accused Israel of failing to meet obligations to care for the wounded in areas of combat.

    In response, the Israeli military did not comment directly on the allegation. In a statement, it accused Hamas, its foe in Gaza, of deliberately using “Palestinian civilians as human shields” and said the Israeli Army “works in close cooperation with international aid organizations during the fighting so that civilians can be provided with assistance.”

    The Israeli military “in no way intentionally targets civilians and has demonstrated its willingness to abort operations to save civilian lives and to risk injury in order to assist innocent civilians,” the statement said, promising that “any serious allegation” would “need to be investigated properly, once such a complaint is received formally, within the constraints of the current military operation.”

    In an unusually blunt criticism, the Geneva-based International Committee of the Red Cross said it had been seeking access to shell-damaged areas in Zeitoun in the east of Gaza City since Saturday but the Israeli authorities granted permission only on Wednesday — the first day that Israel allowed a three-hour lull in the attacks on Gaza on humanitarian grounds.

    The statement said a team of four Palestine Red Crescent ambulances accompanied by Red Cross representatives made its way to Zeitoun Wednesday where it “found four small children next to their dead mothers in one of the houses. They were too weak to stand up on their own. One man was also found alive, too weak to stand up. In all, there were at least 12 corpses lying on mattresses.”

    In another house, the statement said, the rescue team “found 15 other survivors of this attack including several wounded. In yet another house, they found an additional three corpses. Israeli soldiers posted at a military position some 80 meters away from this house ordered the rescue team to leave the area which they refused to do. There were several other positions of the Israeli Defense Forces nearby as well as two tanks.”

    Because of berms built by Israeli forces, the ambulances could not enter the area so “the children and the wounded had to be taken to the ambulances on a donkey cart,” the statement said.

    The statement quoted Pierre Wettach, an International Red Cross representative for Israel and the Palestinian areas, as calling the incident “shocking.”

    “The Israeli military must have been aware of the situation but did not assist the wounded. Neither did they make it possible for us or the Palestine Red Crescent to assist the wounded,” he was quoted as saying.

    The statement said the international Red Cross “believes that in this instance the Israeli military failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded. It considers the delay in allowing rescue services access unacceptable.”

  9. #129
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    Unforgivable.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/middleeast/09redcross.html?_r=1

    By ALAN COWELL
    Published: January 8, 2009
    PARIS — The International Committee of the Red Cross said Thursday it had discovered “shocking” scenes — including small children next to their mothers’ corpses — when its representatives gained access for the first time to parts of Gaza battered by Israeli shelling. It accused Israel of failing to meet obligations to care for the wounded in areas of combat.

    In response, the Israeli military did not comment directly on the allegation. In a statement, it accused Hamas, its foe in Gaza, of deliberately using “Palestinian civilians as human shields” and said the Israeli Army “works in close cooperation with international aid organizations during the fighting so that civilians can be provided with assistance.”

    The Israeli military “in no way intentionally targets civilians and has demonstrated its willingness to abort operations to save civilian lives and to risk injury in order to assist innocent civilians,” the statement said, promising that “any serious allegation” would “need to be investigated properly, once such a complaint is received formally, within the constraints of the current military operation.”

    In an unusually blunt criticism, the Geneva-based International Committee of the Red Cross said it had been seeking access to shell-damaged areas in Zeitoun in the east of Gaza City since Saturday but the Israeli authorities granted permission only on Wednesday — the first day that Israel allowed a three-hour lull in the attacks on Gaza on humanitarian grounds.

    The statement said a team of four Palestine Red Crescent ambulances accompanied by Red Cross representatives made its way to Zeitoun Wednesday where it “found four small children next to their dead mothers in one of the houses. They were too weak to stand up on their own. One man was also found alive, too weak to stand up. In all, there were at least 12 corpses lying on mattresses.”

    In another house, the statement said, the rescue team “found 15 other survivors of this attack including several wounded. In yet another house, they found an additional three corpses. Israeli soldiers posted at a military position some 80 meters away from this house ordered the rescue team to leave the area which they refused to do. There were several other positions of the Israeli Defense Forces nearby as well as two tanks.”

    Because of berms built by Israeli forces, the ambulances could not enter the area so “the children and the wounded had to be taken to the ambulances on a donkey cart,” the statement said.

    The statement quoted Pierre Wettach, an International Red Cross representative for Israel and the Palestinian areas, as calling the incident “shocking.”

    “The Israeli military must have been aware of the situation but did not assist the wounded. Neither did they make it possible for us or the Palestine Red Crescent to assist the wounded,” he was quoted as saying.

    The statement said the international Red Cross “believes that in this instance the Israeli military failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded. It considers the delay in allowing rescue services access unacceptable.”
    This is unsurprising. Still, there will be those that defend Israel and say that they must not have known about the children and the wounded and dead that lay within reach. And like I said before, a 3 hour lull to help the wounded will do absolutely nothing, its a joke. Israel knew it had to allow some form of humanitarian aid because of the international condemnation, so they allow these people in for only 3 fucking hours to help people who are dying. Can you imagine your own dying relatives being moved on donkey carts because ambulances can't enter? Its appalling. And still, they will face zero consequences for their behavior. I posted this before, but I will post it again, this is from February 2008. This is how Israel deals with Palestinian deaths, they "investigate themselves" and inevitably clear themselves of any wrongdoing. Its a joke. Also notice that this was buried within the New York Times, it didn't even make headline news, all it got was a blurb.


    Gaza: Israeli Army Clears Itself in 21 Deaths




    Published: February 27, 2008
    The army said no legal action would be taken against military officials over an artillery strike in Beit Hanun in 2006 in which an errant shell hit residential buildings and killed 21 Palestinian civilians. An army investigation concluded that the shell was fired based on information that militants were intending to fire rockets from the area, an army statement said. The civilian deaths, it said, were “directly due to a rare and severe failure” in the artillery control system. The army’s military advocate general concluded that there was no need for further investigation.



    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/27/wo..._r=1&ref=world
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    Elite Member Aella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    Yeah but Effie you know, I was thinking about this last night...I think sometimes with all the evil in the world, most people tend to disassociate unless it either effects them in some way, or they can identify with the dying and/or dead. I think most people who are ambivalent feel nothing personally towards the Palestinians, because they don't see a blonde haired, blue eyed little girl, or because they see a veiled woman instead of a generic PTA mother. Its incredibly sad to me because these human rights violations have been going on from way before this latest act of violence. I cannot imagine living in Gaza and having every single personal liberty and freedom only at the mercy of someone else. I can't imagine not having the freedom of travel, to see my relatives, to have to ration your food every day, all of your hard earned work going to support yourself and all your neighbors so you don't starve, etc. Can anyone here imagine doctors working on thousands of people solely by the light of their mobile phones? Thats whats happening right now. Its really incredibly heartbreaking. Most people see 130 children as nothing but a number, but imagine that as almost 3 full Greyhound buses.The other night I was watching a dead child on a stretcher and his father was crying and kissing his forehead and stroking his hair and telling him (from what I understood) that he would be with him soon, that he was so sorry. That single scene has stayed with me until now, I can't shake it. I also saw a picture of a mother and her three children at the morgue, the two small bloodied children were laying on her chest. I thought, what if these people were of European descent and were attractive and wealthy, there inevitably would be a different response then, there would be outrage.
    I believe you're on to something. It says a lot about the racism and willful ignorance of most people, that's for sure.

    I don't understand how anybody can be indifferent to those images-IF they get shown by the media said people follow at all (Effie, avert your eyes):





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    Holocaust denied: the lying silence of those who know

    8 Jan 2009 .........John Pilger

    Writing in the New Statesman, John Pilger calls on 40 years of reporting the Middle East to describe the 'why' of Israel's bloody onslaught on the besieged people of Gaza - an attack that has little to do with Hamas or Israel's right to exist.

    “When the truth is replaced by silence,” the Soviet dissident Yevgeny Yevtushenko said, “the silence is a lie.” It may appear the silence is broken on Gaza. The cocoons of murdered children, wrapped in green, together with boxes containing their dismembered parents and the cries of grief and rage of everyone in that death camp by the sea, can be viewed on al-Jazeera and YouTube, even glimpsed on the BBC. But Russia’s incorrigible poet was not referring to the ephemeral we call news; he was asking why those who knew the why never spoke it and so denied it. Among the Anglo-American intelligentsia, this is especially striking. It is they who hold the keys to the great storehouses of knowledge: the historiographies and archives that lead us to the why.

    They know that the horror now raining on Gaza has little to do with Hamas or, absurdly, “Israel’s right to exist”. They know the opposite to be true: that Palestine’s right to exist was cancelled 61 years ago and the expulsion and, if necessary, extinction of the indigenous people was planned and executed by the founders of Israel. They know, for example, that the infamous “Plan D” resulted in the murderous de-population of 369 Palestinian towns and villages by the Haganah (Jewish army) and that massacre upon massacre of Palestinian civilians in such places as Deir Yassin, al-Dawayima, Eilaboun, Jish, Ramle and Lydda are referred to in official records as “ethnic cleansing”. Arriving at a scene of this carnage, David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, was asked by a general, Yigal Allon, “What shall we do with the Arabs?” Ben-Gurion, reported the Israeli historian Benny Morris, “made a dismissive, energetic gesture with his hand and said, ‘Expel them’. The order to expel an entire population “without attention to age” was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, a future prime minister promoted by the world’s most efficient propaganda as a peacemaker. The terrible irony of this was addressed only in passing, such as when the Mapan Party co-leader Meir Ya’ari noted “how easily” Israel’s leaders spoke of how it was “possible and permissible to take women, children and old men and to fill the roads with them because such is the imperative of strategy … who remembers who used this means against our people during the [Second World] war... we are appalled.”

    Every subsequent “war” Israel has waged has had the same objective: the expulsion of the native people and the theft of more and more land. The lie of David and Goliath, of perennial victim, reached its apogee in 1967 when the propaganda became a righteous fury that claimed the Arab states had struck first. Since then, mostly Jewish truth-tellers such as Avi Schlaim, Noam Chomsky, the late Tanya Reinhart, Neve Gordon, Tom Segev, Yuri Avnery, Ilan Pappe and Norman Finklestein have dispatched this and other myths and revealed a state shorn of the humane traditions of Judaism, whose unrelenting militarism is the sum of an expansionist, lawless and racist ideology called zionism. “It seems,” wrote the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe on 2 January, “that even the most horrendous crimes, such as the genocide in Gaza, are treated as desperate events, unconnected to anything that happened in the past and not associated with any ideology or system... Very much as the apartheid ideology explained the oppressive policies of the South African government , this ideology – in its most consensual and simplistic variety – has allowed all the Israeli governments in the past and the present to dehumanise the Palestinians wherever they are and strive to destroy them. The means altered from period to period, from location to location, as did the narrative covering up these atrocities. But there is a clear pattern [of genocide].”

    In Gaza, the enforced starvation and denial of humanitarian aid, the piracy of life-giving resources such as fuel and water, the denial of medicines and treatment, the systematic destruction of infrastructure and the killing and maiming of the civilian population, 50 per cent of whom are children, meet the international standard of the Genocide Convention. “Is it an irresponsible overstatement,” asked Richard Falk, the United Nations Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and international law authority at Princeton University, “to associate the treatment of Palestinians with this criminalized Nazi record of collective atrocity? I think not.”

    In describing a “holocaust-in-the making”, Falk was alluding to the Nazis’ establishment of Jewish ghettos in Poland. For one month in 1943, the captive Polish Jews led by Mordechaj Anielewiz fought off the German army and the SS, but their resistance was finally crushed and the Nazis exacted their final revenge. Falk is also a Jew. Today’s holocaust-in-the-making, which began with Ben-Gurion’s Plan D, is in its final stages. The difference today is that it is a joint US-Israeli project. The F-16 jet fighters, the 250-pound “smart” GBU-39 bombs supplied on the eve of the attack on Gaza, having been approved by a Congress dominated by the Democratic Party, plus the annual $2.4 billion in war-making “aid”, give Washington de facto control. It beggars belief that President-elect Obama was not informed. Outspoken on Russia’s war in Georgia and the terrorism in Mumbai, Obama’s silence on Palestine marks his approval, which is to be expected, given his obsequiousness to the Tel Aviv regime and its lobbyists during the presidential campaign and his appointment of Zionists as his secretary of state, chief of staff and principal Middle East advisers. When Aretha Franklin sings “Think”, her wonderful 1960s anthem to freedom, at Obama’s inauguration on 21 January, I trust someone with the brave heart of Muntadar al-Zaidi, the shoe-thrower, will shout: “Gaza!”

    The asymmetry of conquest and terror is clear. Plan D is now “Operation Cast Lead”, which is the unfinished “Operation Justified Vengeance”. The latter was launched by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2001 when, with Bush’s approval, he used F-16s against Palestinian towns and villages for the first time. In the same year, the authoritative Jane’s Foreign Report disclosed that the Blair government had given Israel the “green light” to attack the West Bank after it was shown Israel’s secret designs for a bloodbath. It was typical of New Labour Party’s enduring, cringing complicity in Palestine’s agony. However, the 2001 Israeli plan, reported Jane’s, needed the “trigger” of a suicide bombing which would cause “numerous deaths and injuries [because] the ‘revenge’ factor is crucial”. This would “motivate Israeli soldiers to demolish the Palestinians”. What alarmed Sharon and the author of the plan, General Shaul Mofaz, the Israeli Chief of Staff, was a secret agreement between Yasser Arafat and Hamas to ban suicide attacks. On 23 November, 2001, Israeli agents assassinated the Hamas leader, Mahmud Abu Hunud, and got their “trigger”; the suicide attacks resumed in response to his killing.

    Something uncannily similar happened on 5 November last, when Israeli special forces attacked Gaza, killing six people. Once again, they got their propaganda “trigger”. A ceasefire initiated and sustained by the Hamas government – which had imprisoned its violators - was shattered by the Israeli attack and home-made rockets were fired into what used to be Palestine before its Arab occupants were “cleansed”. The On 23 December, Hamas offered to renew the ceasefire, but Israel’s charade was such that its all-out assault on Gaza had been planned six months earlier, according to the Israeli daily Ha’aretz.

    Behind this sordid game is the “Dagan Plan”, named after General Meir Dagan, who served with Sharon in his bloody invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Now head of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence organisation, Dagan is the author of a “solution” that has seen the imprisonment of Palestinians behind a ghetto wall snaking across the West Bank and in Gaza, effectively a concentration camp. The establishment of a quisling government in Ramallah under Mohammed Abbas is Dagan’s achievement, together with a hasbara (propaganda) campaign relayed through a mostly supine, if intimidated western media, notably in America, that says Hamas is a terrorist organisation devoted to Israel’s destruction and to “blame” for the massacres and siege of its own people over two generations, long before its creation. “We have never had it so good,” said the Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Gideon Meir in 2006. “The hasbara effort is a well-oiled machine.” In fact, Hamas’s real threat is its example as the Arab world’s only democratically elected government, drawing its popularity from its resistance to the Palestinians’ oppressor and tormentor. This was demonstrated when Hamas foiled a CIA coup in 2007, an event ordained in the western media as “Hamas’s seizure of power”. Likewise, Hamas is never described as a government, let alone democratic. Neither is its proposal of a ten-year truce as a historic recognition of the “reality” of Israel and support for a two-state solution with just one condition: that the Israelis obey international law and end their illegal occupation beyond the 1967 borders. As every annual vote in the UN General Assembly demonstrates, 99 per cent of humanity concurs. On 4 January, the president of the General Assembly, Miguel d’Escoto, described the Israeli attack on Gaza as a “monstrosity”.

    When the monstrosity is done and the people of Gaza are even more stricken, the Dagan Plan foresees what Sharon called a “1948-style solution” – the destruction of all Palestinian leadership and authority followed by mass expulsions into smaller and smaller “cantonments” and perhaps finally into Jordan. This demolition of institutional and educational life in Gaza is designed to produce, wrote Karma Nabulsi, a Palestinian exile in Britain, “a Hobbesian vision of an anarchic society: truncated, violent, powerless, destroyed, cowed... Look to the Iraq of today: that is what [Sharon] had in store for us, and he has nearly achieved it.”

    Dr. Dahlia Wasfi is an American writer on Palestine. She has a Jewish mother and an Iraqi Muslim father. “Holocaust denial is anti-Semitic,” she wrote on 31 December. “But I’m not talking about World War Two, Mahmoud Ahmedinijad (the president of Iran) or Ashkenazi Jews. What I’m referring to is the holocaust we are all witnessing and responsible for in Gaza today and in Palestine over the past 60 years... Since Arabs are Semites, US-Israeli policy doesn’t get more anti-Semitic than this.” She quoted Rachel Corrie, the young American who went to Palestine to defend Palestinians and was crushed by an Israeli bulldozer. “I am in the midst of a genocide,” wrote Corrie, “which I am also indirectly supporting and for which my government is largely responsible.”

    Reading the words of both, I am struck by the use of “responsibility”. Breaking the lie of silence is not an esoteric abstraction but an urgent responsibility that falls to those with the privilege of a platform. With the BBC cowed, so too is much of journalism, merely allowing vigorous debate within unmovable invisible boundaries, ever fearful of the smear of anti-Semitism. The unreported news, meanwhile, is that the death toll in Gaza is the equivalent of 18,000 dead in Britain. Imagine, if you can.

    Then there are the academics, the deans and teachers and researchers. Why are they silent as they watch a university bombed and hear the Association of University Teachers in Gaza plea for help? Are British universities now, as Terry Eagleton believes, no more than “intellectual Tescos, churning out a commodity known as graduates rather than greengroceries”?

    Then there are the writers. In the dark year of 1939, the Third Writers’ Congress was held at Carnegie Hall in New York and the likes of Thomas Mann and Albert Einstein sent messages and spoke up to ensure the lie of silence was broken. By one account, 3,500 jammed the auditorium and a thousand were turned away. Today, this mighty voice of realism and morality is said to be obsolete; the literary review pages affect an ironic hauteur of irrelevance; false symbolism is all. As for the readers, their moral and political imagination is to be pacified, not primed. The anti-Muslim Martin Amis expressed this well in Visiting Mrs Nabokov: “The dominance of the self is not a flaw, it is an evolutionary characteristic; it is just how things are.”

    If that is how things are, we are diminished as a civilised society. For what happens in Gaza is the defining moment of our time, which either grants the impunity of war criminals the immunity of our silence, while we contort our own intellect and morality, or gives us the power to speak out. For the moment I prefer my own memory of Gaza: of the people’s courage and resistance and their “luminous humanity”, as Karma Nabulsi put it. On my last trip there, I was rewarded with a spectacle of Palestinian flags fluttering in unlikely places. It was dusk and children had done this. No one told them to do it. They made flagpoles out of sticks tied together, and a few of them climbed on to a wall and held the flag between them, some silently, others crying out. They do this every day when they know foreigners are leaving, believing the world will not forget them.

    http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=519

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    Let's be honest here, "the west" tolerates Israel's illegal behaviour because there is still a lot of collective guilt about what happened to the Jews during WW2 and, it has to be said, if anyone dares criticise Israel's continued beligerance towards its neighbours then it's only a matter of time before some politician or religious or military leader plays the H card and everyone shuts up. They are literally getting away with murder but the world community is too intimidated about political correctness to call them to account. I know I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but someone had to.

    And I am NOT defending Islamist militant suicide bombers and terrorists who carry out atrocities against innocent Israeli civilians. They are equally reprehensible. But there seems to be a perception that Israel are the "good guys" in all these conflicts and they are not.
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    Questioning anything Israel does = anti-semitism.

    It's interesting to note that when anybody questions what the palestinians do, there's no call for them to be silenced.

    Both sides sucked fucking ass at one time or another.

    Both need to grow up.

    Both need to have peace enforced on them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    Let's be honest here, "the west" tolerates Israel's illegal behaviour because there is still a lot of collective guilt about what happened to the Jews during WW2 and, it has to be said, if anyone dares criticise Israel's continued beligerance towards its neighbours then it's only a matter of time before some politician or religious or military leader plays the H card and everyone shuts up. They are literally getting away with murder but the world community is too intimidated about political correctness to call them to account. I know I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but someone had to.
    No flames from me, you're absolutely right.

    I almost got into a massive fight with this Jewish-American woman I know in livejournal the other day, because when someone expressed a (polite) criticism of Israel's actions in Gaza, she immediately snapped back accusing them of being antisemitic (!).

    Er, criticism Israel's policy does not equal antisemitism. Criticizing a government does not mean you hate all the people living under that government! GOD! I criticize my own government all the time, I guess I'm crippled by self-loathing.
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    Gaza medics describe horror of strike which killed 70

    Growing evidence emerged today of the bloodiest single incident of the Gaza conflict when around 70 corpses were found by a Palestinian paramedic near a bombed-out house.

    By Tim Butcher in Jerusalem

    January 08, 2009 "The Telegraph" ---
    Mohammed Shaheen, a volunteer with Palestinian Red Crescent, was in the first convoy of ambulances to reach the site of the blast in Zeitoun since it was first occupied then shelled by the Israeli army.

    His testimony confirmed accounts, first reported in The Telegraph, from survivors of the extended al Samouni clan who said they feared between 60 and 70 family members had been killed.

    "Inside the Samouni house I saw about ten bodies and outside another sixty,'' Mr Shaheen said.

    "I was not able to count them accurately because there was not much time and we were looking for wounded people.

    "We found fifteen people still alive but injured so we took them in the ambulances.

    "I could see an Israeli army bulldozer knocking down houses nearby but we ran out of time and the Israeli soldiers started shooting at us.

    "We had to leave about eight injured people behind because we could not get to them and it was no longer safe for us to stay.'' Mr Shaheen was in a convoy led by a jeep from the International Committee of the Red Cross that made its way down war-damaged tracks past demolished houses to the town of Zeitoun.

    Concerns had been growing that Zeitoun had witnessed massive civilian casualties after surviving members of the Samouni clan reached Gaza City three days ago.

    They said that after the Israeli army first took the town on Saturday night soldiers had ordered about 100 members of the clan to gather in a single house owned by Wael Samouni around dawn on Sunday.

    At 6.35am on Monday the house was repeatedly shelled with appalling loss of civilian life.

    A handful of survivors, some wounded, others carrying dead or dying infants, made it on foot to Gaza's main north-south road before they were given lifts to hospital. Three small children were buried in Gaza City that afternoon.

    According to the survivors between 60 and 70 family members had been killed by shrapnel and falling masonry.

    Convoys of ambulances twice headed to the area to look for wounded but they were driven back by Israeli shooting.


    During today's three hour lull in offensive operations by Israel, the ICRC led the rescue convoy in although it took a long time for the convoy to make its way down war-damaged.

    According to Mr Shaheen, the death toll was as high as described by the survivors.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21682.htm

    The KNOWN death toll is now at 767 dead and 3150 wounded.

    It's still impossible to know how many bodies remain buried in the rubble.

    But there's no hurry for the "civilised" world to take decisive action to enforce international law.

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