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Thread: Gaza complicates Barack Obama's policy in Mideast

  1. #181
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Well, I for one, have never implied that Palestine is innocent, I'm sorry if someone extrapolated that from my posts (not directed at anyone, clearing things up). But, as Grimm so eloquently pointed out, I can understand their frustration, they had their land forcibly removed from them and they live in an absolute shithole, and for years couldn't even cross the street to see relatives without getting Israeli permission. That doesn't mean that I condone how they use their anger sometimes. But yeah, about the rockets - cry me a river. People in Israel haven't lived in bomb shelters since 2000, give me a break. Talk about a wild exaggeration, most people in Israel will never feel the effects of this war. The remaining people in Gaza will never be the same, everyone is affected. You shove 1.5 million people into a tiny space and bomb the hell out of it, its a miracle anyone gets out unscathed. The writer above is correct that this is a Holocaust of its own making, although that will never be reported in the mainstream media in the US. Gaza has been in a war since its creation, they have never been at peace.

    And in this particular instance, I do feel like Gaza has the right to defend themselves against a brutal occupying power (not by rocket fire). As someone pointed out, there is way more blood on Israel's hands than on the Palestinians, but that is because of military might, they crush anything that moves. No doubt that Palestine has the same agenda if they had all the military power. But they don't, so its kind of a "what if" scenario which really doesn't apply. Israel has shown itself over and over to be a barbaric aggressive occupying force which kills women and children without discretion. All this from a "civilized" nation.

    And living in America, I can tell you firsthand how incredibly slanted the media is here towards Israel. Rica is evidence of that, look at what she has pointed out, that its so sad that Israelis have to live in fear. Sounds like Fox News to me. I never realized how one-sided our media is until the first time I was in Europe, like I said before. This is the very first time that I believe the media can't deny whats going on over there, and is starting to show a bit of backbone. But wander on over to AOL News, and their polls show 80% of people still think that Israel is justified in the high civilian body count. I truly think people are just stupid.

    The most important thing here is that this war is escalating, and more and more women and children are dying as we speak (over 200 Palestinian children so far). People are being denied any humanitarian aid, doctors are operating by the light of their mobile phones, and its cold and people have nowhere to sleep. THESE are the things that are important right now, that need to be solved immediately. Fuck Israel for their human rights violations, that is what makes me so angry. All of the rest doesn't matter right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    and by the way, i think israel should go back to the 1967 borders and suck it up and give back all that land, and that the only way to end the conflict is a two-state solution.
    I agree, wish in my heart I could see this happen.
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  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    once again, did you read the part about how resolutions are one-sided and only condemn israel and say nothing about palestinian terrorism? i'm bolding it this time to be sure you'll see it.
    have you ever been at a negotiation where people try to get something included condemning both sides and especially terrorist acts against israeli civiians only to be shot down and ignored because they know they have the votes to pass the text as is? or at most they'll make a token gesture and put in like half a line. like i said, i never said israel was the victim, but if these resolutions actually respected the UN Charter in the first place, they wouldn't be so biased, politicised and one-sided.
    do your research, becky.


    last time i checked, the US is not the whole world.
    check out the media in the rest of the world and you'll see there are more of them that do portray them as victims and don't tell both sides.
    last time i checked, self-determination does not mean the right to commit terrorism.

    also, the PLO are the masters of double-speak. they would say one thing to western media, and another to muslim media. to the west, they would play the game and claim they wanted a peaceful, two-state solution. to the muslim world, they would go on about the obliteration of the zionist state. arafat was especially good at this.
    and while i think palestine was better off when he was still around, i also can't deny that he was an expert at double-speak.
    If at any point the US felt the resolutions were so one-sided as to be unfair to Israel all they had to do was veto them. The fact that so many got through is a miracle in itself. The distortion of the record is actually the opposite of what you state.

    A History of U.S. Vetoes


    There is another major area, largely ignored, that at some point must be faced. It involves the serious distortion of the official Security Council record by the profligate use by the United States of its veto power. In 29 separate cases between 1972 and 1991, the United States has vetoed resolutions critical of Israel. Except for the U.S. veto, these resolutions would have passed and the total number of resolutions against Israel would now equal 95 instead of 66.
    These resolutions would have broadened the record by affirming the right of Palestinian self-determination, by calling on Israel to abandon its repressive measures against the Palestinian intifada, by sending U.N. Observers into the occupied territories to monitor Israel's behavior and, most serious, by imposing sanctions against Israel if it did not abide by the Council's resolutions. Such a list of resolutions passed and resolutions vetoed is unparalleled in United Nations history. The list in itself forms a stunning indictment of Israel's unlawful and uncivilized actions over a period of 45 years and of America's complicity in them.

  3. #183
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Israel 'shelled civilian shelter'


    Israeli forces shelled a house in the Gaza Strip which they had moved around 110 Palestinians into 24 hours earlier, the UN quotes witnesses as saying.

    The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) called it "one of the gravest incidents" since the beginning of the offensive.
    The shelling at Zeitoun, a south-east suburb of Gaza City, on 5 January killed some 30 people, the report said.
    Israel says it has looked into the allegations and they are unfounded.
    Israeli foreign ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said no Israeli soldiers had been in the area on the day the incident was supposed to have happened.
    The OCHA report said: "According to several testimonies, on 4 January Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians into a single-residence house in Zeitoun (half of whom were children) warning them to stay indoors.
    "Twenty-four hours later, Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30."
    The UN said those who survived and were able walked 2km to the main north-south road to be transported to hospital in civilian vehicles.
    "Three children, the youngest of whom was five months old, died upon arrival at the hospital," the report said.
    'No safe haven'
    Allegra Pacheco, of OCHA in Jerusalem, said they were not accusing the Israelis of a deliberate act, but said the incident needed to be investigated.
    She also said they were concerned at claims by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) that ambulances were only allowed access to the neighbourhood on Thursday - four days after the alleged incident.
    The ICRC on Thursday accused Israel of failing to fulfil its duty to help wounded civilians in Gaza.
    "In Gaza, there is a severe protection of civilians crisis. There is no safe haven, no safe space, for all the civilians, particularly children," Ms Pacheco told the BBC.
    "Since the ground operation, the number of children killed has risen by 250%."
    An estimated 770 Palestinians and 14 Israelis have died in nearly two weeks of Israel's air and ground offensive against the Palestinian militant group Hamas.
    The UN Security Council has called for an immediate ceasefire and the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza.



    BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israel 'shelled civilian shelter'
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  4. #184
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    I have a feeling Israeli will continue *cleaning up*i even think it will worsen in coming days..
    Until Jan the 20th..then there might be a truce,give the new President the Messiah title..maybe i am cynical but politics are dirty anyway..
    "Effie is all kinds of awesome." - Some internet moderator


  6. #186
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    also, the PLO are the masters of double-speak. they would say one thing to western media, and another to muslim media. to the west, they would play the game and claim they wanted a peaceful, two-state solution. to the muslim world, they would go on about the obliteration of the zionist state. arafat was especially good at this.
    and while i think palestine was better off when he was still around, i also can't deny that he was an expert at double-speak.
    If memory serves, I remember hearing/reading a long time ago (before Arafat died) that he would say one thing to the press in English and another thing in Arabic (or whatever non-English language he used to speak to the Palestinians)

    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    and by the way, i think israel should go back to the 1967 borders and suck it up and give back all that land, and that the only way to end the conflict is a two-state solution.
    of course since this is the most logical solution, it will never happen...too many egos and other stuff will always get in the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by ana-mish-ana View Post
    Its because of the holy land crap thats associated with it thats the main cause. Another thing to consider is that many commentators have commented that there will be a demographic change in Israel with Arabs becoming a larger minority and I cant not help think that will be a factor in future conflict.
    I really with they'd stop referring to it as *the* Holy Land and rather *a* holy land instead. For many people, myself included, that strip of land is not "holy" to me. Arches National Park is far more holy to me than anything in the Middle East will ever be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    AMEN!

    Quote Originally Posted by effie2 View Post
    I have a feeling Israeli will continue *cleaning up*i even think it will worsen in coming days..
    Until Jan the 20th..then there might be a truce,give the new President the Messiah title..maybe i am cynical but politics are dirty anyway..
    I was under the impression from a bunch of articles that the Bush administration is kind of letting the Israelis get away with this by not doing much about it or saying anything. I think there are some people who believe that US policy toward Israel may change somewhat, not majorly, after Obama takes office. What that change would be is...? A change would be nice though. The US has been doing the same thing toward Israel and nothing has really changed or improved over there.

  7. #187
    Elite Member Rica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Rica, if someone walked into wherever the hell you live, uprooted you and your people by force and then took over your country, relegating you to squalid hellhole refugee camps and tiny strips of land where you were piled on top of each other in poverty.. wouldn't you be just the slightest bit pissed off? Wouldn't you fight for what was taken from you?

    Get real.

    Yes, other powers in the region use this conflict as a proxy for their own stupidity, that doesn't negate the fact that an entire people had their world stolen from them by western powers to create a new nation, by force, for another group of people that was almost wiped out.

    It's insane.
    I'd fight, I never said that the Palestinians shouldnt defend themselves, but they have spent a period of time provoking a country more powerful then they are by sending rockets over the boarder. Seriously, how fucking stupid are they to do that?

    This conflict has been going on for a long time, as sweetie said, and as it as also been stated, people have been pushed out of their land thoughout history, in every country.

    When it comes do to the bare bones of it all, each country is defending itself and its own people, Israel is bigger and stronger and more powerful and have obviously had enough of the rockets and weapons being smuggled into Gaza and have invaded the small country.


    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    But yeah, about the rockets - cry me a river. People in Israel haven't lived in bomb shelters since 2000, give me a break.

    I've watched a few documentrys on the Discovery channel and NatGeo regarding the rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel and they stated that its been going on since 2000. Just because it hasnt been in the media as a big bad invasion/attack doesnt mean it didnt happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    And living in America, I can tell you firsthand how incredibly slanted the media is here towards Israel. Rica is evidence of that, look at what she has pointed out, that its so sad that Israelis have to live in fear. Sounds like Fox News to me. I never realized how one-sided our media is until the first time I was in Europe, like I said before. This is the very first time that I believe the media can't deny whats going on over there, and is starting to show a bit of backbone. But wander on over to AOL News, and their polls show 80% of people still think that Israel is justified in the high civilian body count. I truly think people are just stupid.
    I dont live in America. I live in the Netherlands. Dont get Fox news, only CNN. I also watch Dutch news. Perhaps the problem is no media except from the Arab world is allowed in Gaza. I've seen footage on CNN of the media from the countrys that are in Gaza and can report and they are some very sad and distrubing images. I think the worst part is its all happening in a short period of time. No one really seems concerned with the rocket attacks on Israel, because they have been over a long period of time.

    It is a horrific thing that is going on, but if it happened 100 years ago no one would care. This sort of stuff HAS happened in the past and will occur again in the future.

    The irony is, if USA did this, somehow everyone would be on the USA's side...
    Some other country does it, they are evil and brutal and need to be stopped.

  8. #188
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rica View Post
    The irony is, if USA did this, somehow everyone would be on the USA's side...
    Really?!? Like how everyone around the world supported the US invasion of Iraq?

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    Children of Hamas:
    YouTube - Children of Hamas

    Hamas brainwash kids with cartoon characters to be terrorist:
    YouTube - Hamas brainwash kids with cartoon characters to be terrorist


    Gaza's political children's show - 26 Feb 08:
    YouTube - Gaza's political children's show - 26 Feb 08

    Hamas Indoctrinating Toddlers:
    YouTube - Hamas Indoctrinating Toddlers

    Cast Lead - Hamas militants use children as a humane shield!!
    YouTube - Cast Lead - Hamas militants use children as a humane shield

    Terror against Israel:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzzVwZCrs6Y

  10. #190
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    In 1996, Israeli jets bombed a UN building where civilians had taken refuge at Cana/ Qana in south Lebanon, killing 102 persons; in the place where Jesus is said to have made water into wine, Israeli bombs wrought a different sort of transformation. In the distant, picturesque port of Hamburg, a young graduate student studying traditional architecture of Aleppo saw footage like this on the news [graphic]. He was consumed with anguish and the desire for revenge. As soon as operation Grapes of Wrath had begun the week before, he had written out a martyrdom will, indicating his willingness to die avenging the victims, killed in that operation--with airplanes and bombs that were a free gift from the United States. His name was Muhammad Atta. Five years later he piloted American Airlines 11 into the World Trade Center. . . .

    On Tuesday, the Israeli military shelled a United Nations school to which terrified Gazans had fled for refuge, killing at least 42 persons and wounding 55, virtually all of them civilians, and many of them children. The Palestinian death toll rose to 660.

    You wonder if someone somewhere is writing out a will today.


    Informed Comment: Al-Fakhoura School Bombed, 42 Killed, Including Children; <br> 13,000 Homeless <br> Water, Medicine in Short Supply

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Rica, if someone walked into wherever the hell you live, uprooted you and your people by force and then took over your country, relegating you to squalid hellhole refugee camps and tiny strips of land where you were piled on top of each other in poverty.. wouldn't you be just the slightest bit pissed off? Wouldn't you fight for what was taken from you?

    Get real.

    What was taken from you? This country was under britannia control from 1917 and under Turkey control from 1517 to 1917.

  12. #192
    A*O
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    And before 1517? This is what I mean about ancient disputes still being used to justify what's happening TODAY. It was the same in Northern Ireland when it was Christian terrorists bombing EACH OTHER over 400yr old battles and politics.

    Marie, assuming you are an Israeli is there any kind of public outrage at your Government's behaviour or does the general population support it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post

    Marie, assuming you are an Israeli is there any kind of public outrage at your Government's behaviour or does the general population support it?

    Outrage is not the correct word, there is always a criticism no matter what the govermment will do like in all democracy in the world.

    You all dont live here, you dont know how is it to live here, i was born here. i was injured in a terorr attact (im ok now), you take your
    information from the media a piece here a piece there and you chat about that in theory.

    Unlike what pepole like to think we are not the devil here. What will you want your goverment to do if someone sent rockets to civilian towns? pepole live in seltters for months before we act in Gaza, kids dosent go to scholls, perents dosent go to work and i talk about months not days or weeks.

    The big diff and what you dont understand is that the Hamas sent rocket into civilians targets in purpose to kill and destroy civilians, the Hamas sent suicide terrorists into clubs,schools, shop centers to kill and destroy civilians we fight agains the Hamas who use children as a humane shield:

    YouTube - Cast Lead - Hamas militants use children as a humane shield

    Of course nobody here want war! we know that from the moment the first rocket is send, from the first bullet that was shot EVERYONE lose, there is no winers in war. but sometime you just have no choice.

    On every Palestine who speak agains Israel there is a Palestine who have Isreali friends, who move out from Gaza and live in peace. On every Israeli who speak agains the Palestine there is a Isreali who help them but the media never show those sides.

    I dont "hate" the Palestines or the Arabs, i never said that all Arabs or all Palestines are this or that but the Israelis do believe that the Hamas is a terror organization that is all purpose is to destroy Israel and not to help the Palestines.

    **Im sorry for my bad English the subject is very emotional and painful to me and i hope you will understand what im trying to say even if my spelling is worng or if i use the incorrect word.

  14. #194
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    What we 'westerners' don't understand is why Israel uses such brutal and indiscriminate force to deal with Hamas terrorists. Does every home, school, market and hospital in Gaza harbour a Hamas suicide bomber or member? I absolutely understand the need to retaliate but does it have to be quite so extreme? Like I say, Israel has excellent special forces and intelligence who surely could take out specific targets (aka individuals) instead of sending in flame throwing tanks?

    Maybe I'm naive because I don't live in a society where each day could be my last but I also think about the excellent movie "Munich" which tells the story of how MOSSAD agents specifically and clinically took out the people responsible for the Munich Olympics massacre of Israeli athletes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    What we 'westerners' don't understand is why Israel uses such brutal and indiscriminate force to deal with Hamas terrorists. Does every home, school, market and hospital in Gaza harbour a Hamas suicide bomber or member? I absolutely understand the need to retaliate but does it have to be quite so extreme? Like I say, Israel has excellent special forces and intelligence who surely could take out specific targets (aka individuals) instead of sending in flame throwing tanks?

    Maybe I'm naive because I don't live in a society where each day could be my last but I also think about the excellent movie "Munich" which tells the story of how MOSSAD agents specifically and clinically took out the people responsible for the Munich Olympics massacre of Israeli athletes.

    We do that bc the Hamas hide his weapons in those places! bc the Hamas operat from scholls and that is the problem!!!

    Thats why i call them terorrs, not bc they fight agains me or bc they dont want me here its bc they use kids! Palestines kids us a humane shield and Israeli kids as a targets.

    You need to thank god and be happy that you dont understand that i see that in my eyes and i still dont inderstand how they can use kids like that. be happy that you dont have to deal with terorrist that sent rocket to your child kindergarten from their child kindergarten.

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