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Thread: Gaza complicates Barack Obama's policy in Mideast

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    Thanks for the explanation. I freely admit I find the whole situation very confusing with all the various factions involved.

    I still don't understand why Israel thinks that blasting Hamas into oblivion is going to solve the problem because it merely creates martyrs. If Hamas is the problem then I don't understand why the democratically elected Palestinian Fatha government doesn't take action to deal with it. It seems to me that they are complicit with the Hamas agenda by letting them continue with their "jihad" against Israel.

    The Fatha dose take actions and he have the support and the help of the Arab world. no one complicit with the Hamas agenda, no Arab country (and no other country) help Hamas (except for Iran).
    Its hard to fight agains terorr organization especially when he put kids in the first line and hide his pp in seltters, we see the Palestine support in every day life but those things never get to the media maybe bc the Hamas kill Fatha pp who live in Gaza or pp that show support for Fatha.

    "I still don't understand why Israel thinks that blasting Hamas into oblivion is going to solve the problem because it merely creates martyrs" sorry but my English is not so good and i dont understand what you mean here ?

  2. #152
    Elite Member january's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marie View Post
    as much as i know we have no war with those countries, as much that i know some of them support Israel actions in Gaza, some of them are even friends with Israel.
    Do you get most of your news from Israeli media? Because I think you'd be hard pressed to find any of your surrounding neighbors who agree with what you are doing right now. I'm not sure exactly what you are reading, but if you step over into Egypt, Lebanon, etc., you are not going to find a great reception towards your government. Yes, Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel, but don't misunderstand that what a government does and how its people feel are two very different things. I think you will be solely disappointed to learn that the VAST majority of Egyptians are completely and totally against what it going on in Gaza right now, even if their government is playing nice. Find me one and color me surprised. Mubarak gets a lot of flak for cowering to the Israeli government, believe me.

    And everyone understands the politics here, thats not the issue. As Fluffy and I pointed out, why aren't western journalists being let into Gaza if things are all puppies and rainbows and Israel is love? Have you personally seen the pictures of the dead children?

    Warning: Explicit and Graphic Pictures of Dead Children

    http://www.monde-magouilles.com/photos_guerre/gaza3.jpg
    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...06673810-1.jpg
    http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2009/..._470x312,0.jpg
    http://palestinianvoice.files.wordpr...d_children.jpg
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/...02_468x309.jpg
    http://www.imemc.org/attachments/may...gaza_strip.jpg
    http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/...-child-1-2.jpg
    http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-content/uplo..._file_2007.jpg
    http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...aR_468x560.jpg

    And there are plenty more which are much, much worse. Israel has all the tools at their disposal to kill Hamas with precision, and yet they have killed just as many innocent civilians as they have Hamas. Can you give me an explanation as to why that is, can you justify that for me? Have you read the other articles posted here in which people in Gaza have voiced just how boxed in they are, how they are doomed, and that Israel bombs anything at their own discretion? Nobody is safe there.

    And if Israel is so "helpful" why did it attack the UN aid relief today that was arriving with aid shipments for the wounded Palestinians? Did you know that a medic was killed that was trying to provide aid, and that the UN workers had to turn away under heavy fire? Tell me, if Israel cares so much, how can it neglect the fact that people are dying by the tenfold because they have no medical care?
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  3. #153
    A*O
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    They do it because they know that nobody is going to hold them accountable. Shame on you Israel. You are no better than the terrorists you claim to despise.
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    Jan, those pics are exactly what is the problem with the Hamas. The Israeli armi give Gaza 15 minutes warning before he act but instead of sending the kids to seltter they sent their pp and leave the kids behind. Egypt and more countries offer seltter to kids and Hamad said no.
    Hamas like all terror organizations hide behind civilians

    Egypt Blame Hamas For Violence :YouTube - Egypt Blame Hamas For Violence - Mısır da terörist Haması suçluyor مصر وجرائم *ماس



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    Quote Originally Posted by marie View Post
    The Palestinians did NOT vote or chose the Hamas! their elected leaders are the Fatha. The Hamas military coup Gaza. The Palestinias that live in the west bank with their leaders that they vote for in a democratic elections live with the Israeli pp, sit in the Knesset (Israeli parlament) and ect... Gaza which is under the Hamas military control is in war with Israel.
    This is utterly false. The Hamas election victory was free and fair, with numerous international observers, including Jimmy Carter. Hamas' victory was a rejection of the Israel-collaborating, totally corrupt Fatah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marie View Post
    Jan, those pics are exactly what is the problem with the Hamas. The Israeli armi give Gaza 15 minutes warning before he act but instead of sending the kids to seltter they sent their pp and leave the kids behind. Egypt and more countries offer seltter to kids and Hamad said no.
    Hamas like all terror organizations hide behind civilians

    Egypt Blame Hamas For Violence :YouTube - Egypt Blame Hamas For Violence - Mısır da terörist Haması suçluyor مصر وجرائم *ماس
    Marie, where do you want them to go? Gaza is a tiny strip of land 128 sq. miles, containing 1.5 million people. There IS nowhere to go.

  7. #157
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    into the sea, is my guess.

    Maybe if someon hadn't stolen their entire nation from them, they would have someplace to live. Oh well, thank the league of nations for that one.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marie View Post
    You talk about the Arab world and the war between the Arab world and Israel, what war? the Arab world and Israel are no longer in war! Arab world is Egypt,Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Jordan and more. as much as i know we have no war with those countries, as much that i know some of them support Israel actions in Gaza, some of them are even friends with Israel. The Hamas is NOT the Arab world (exactly like Hizballa and El Kaida are not the Arab world) they are terror organizations. To say that they are the Arab world its like to say that the Natzi is the Europe world or that the KKK is the Christian world.

    We are not fighting agains the Arabs we fighting agains the terror organization, organization that his main goal is to destroy Israel and not to benefit with Gaza. we know that, Europe know that, Arab world know that and thats is why those leaders "let" Israel act in Gaza not bc someone somewere feel guilt about WW2, nobody feel guilt and nobody need to feel gulit.
    I will refer you to the following list. I guess "terrorist" is in the eye of the beholder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
    NEVER FORGET

    The King David Massacre

    The Massacre at Baldat al-Shaikh

    Yehida Massacre

    Khisas Massacre

    Qazaza, Massacre

    The Semiramis Hotel Massacre

    The Massacre at Dair Yasin

    Naser Al-Din Massacre

    The Tanturra Massacre

    Beit Daras Massacre

    The Dahmash Mosque Massacre

    Dawayma Massacre

    Houla Massacre

    Sharafat Massacre

    Salha Massacre

    The Massacre at Qibya

    Kaft Qasem Massacre

    Khan Yunis Massacre

    The Massacre in Gaza City

    Al-Sammuo' Massacre

    Aitharoun Massacre

    Kawnin Massacre

    Hanin Massacre

    Bint Jbeil Massacre

    Abbasieh Massacre

    Adloun Massacre

    Saida Massacre

    Fakhani Massacre

    Beirut Massacre

    Sabra And Shatila Massacre

    Jibsheet Massacre

    Sohmor Massacre

    Seer Al Garbiah

    Maaraka Massacres

    Zrariah Massacre

    Homeen Al-Tahta Massacre

    Jibaa Massacre

    Yohmor Massacre

    Tiri massacre

    Al-Naher Al-Bared Massacre

    Ain Al-Hillwee Massacre

    Oyon Qara Massacre

    Siddiqine Massacre

    Al-Aqsa Mosque Massacre

    The Ibrahimi Mosque Massacre

    The Jabalia Massacre

    Aramta Massacre

    Eretz Checkpoint Massacre

    Deir Al-Zahrani Massacre

    Nabatiyeh (school bus) Massacre

    Mnsuriah Massacre

    The Sohmor Second Massacre

    Nabatyaih Massacre

    Qana Massacre

    Trqumia Massacr

    Janta Massacre

    24 Of June 1999 Massacres

    Western Bekaa villages Massacre
    *************************

    The above are all massacre's of Palestinians by Israeli's. Please google them all and read of the atrocities. This latest invasion is but a continuation of Israels determination to push the Palestinians into the sea and seize what is left of their forsaken land.

    Feel free to google to try and find comparable Israeli body counts caused by Palestinians. You will not be able to.
    Now, who is trying to destroy who?

  9. #159
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    Yes, terrorism is in the eye of the beholder, I agree. The side one believes in is never a terrorist group, but freedom fighters. It's human nature to see things through that lens.

    But there's a list of Palestinian attacks against Israelis as well. Neither side can claim the moral high ground as far as attacks on innocent people, and the difference in casualties is due to the fact that Israel is more powerful. The stronger party will usually have a higher body count- that's the way it works. Now, that doesn't mean I agree with Israel, but that I feel both sides have blood on their hands throughout this long conflict.

    Avivam School Bus massacre

    Munich Massacre

    Khartoum diplomatic assasinations-1973

    Paris Synagogue Bombing 1980

    Antwerp Bombing 1981

    Vienna Synagogue Attack 1981

    Maxim Resturant Bombing

    Pan Am Flight 110

    Savoy Hotel

    SwissAir Flight 330

    Egypt Air Flight 648

    Gulf Air Flight 771

    Rome & Vienna Airport Attacks 1985

    TWA Flight 840

    TWA Flight 841

    Pan AM Flight 73

    It seems to me that both sides are trying to destroy the other. The Palestinians haven't been slouches in the killing of innocents- they just don't have the military hardware and capabilities that Israel does.

    The only way peace will be reached is when both sides let the past go, and concern themselves with the future. They can't undo history, but they can try for a better tomorrow.



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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    They aren't interested, at least the people in power aren't.
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    Israel is also an occupying power. Palestinians are within their rights under International Law to resist an occupying power, particularly one as brutal as Israel.

    UN Charter art. 51) (6). The right to resist finds application within the framework of the right of legitimate defense because "a state which forcibly subjugates a people to colonial or alien domination is committing an unlawful act as defined by international law, and the subject people, in the exercise of its inherent right of self-defense, may fight to defend and attain its right to self-determination."(7)


    Go to this link and see if you can find a single international humanitarian law that Israel HAS NOT violated, and then tell me what you and yours would do under such a severe occupation.

  12. #162
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Well for one, I'd make better rockets. Those Quasam rockets don't appear to be particularely effective.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  13. #163
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    I agree that an occupied people have the right to fight and defend themselves.

    I don't agree that that right extends to Palestinians blowing up airplanes full of civilians. Just as I don't believe Israel is within it's rights to massacre civilians in refugee camps.

    This one side is 100% right and the other is 100% wrong point of view is one of the main reasons that this cannot be resolved. In their way both sides have points where they are right, and both have points where they are wrong. Neither will take an honest look at their part in this.

    If they will never admit to the wrong, they will never have peace. And the murder of innocent Palestinians and Israeli's will continue.....



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    And your so totally right! and thats the connundrum. But what pisses me off is that you have invested interests and agendas who use this conflict as a smoke screen and in many ways its a proxy war that is being fought at the moment. But I think the response that Israel is doing right now is totally wrong. They dont give a shit about the casualties and innocent loss of lives and this will only garner more support for the extremists rather than the people with sense and peace talks.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    In this conflict I see right and wrong on both sides. No one is 100% either, and both sides have some valid points.

    But I do find it strange that one of the main issues is that there is so much trouble getting food and medicine into Gaza for the Palestinians.......but there seems to be very little trouble getting rockets and artillery in there.

    In that respect it's similar to the 'Troubles', where men need this fighting to keep going on for their own gain, while the innocent people that just want to go about daily life suffer.
    exactly.
    the palestinian authority has become an expert on playing victim for the press and the arab world in general totally uses this conflict for their own interests. especially in multilateral fora like the UN. mention anything, like darfur or iran or anything else that is going on in the muslim world, and they turn into the kings of denial and start going on about state sovereignty and not interfering in the internal affairs of states and bla, bla, bla and how it's all the west's manipulation. and the only thing that exists and is important is ending israeli occupation and the evil zionists. i'm not saying the middle east isn't important but it's also not the only problem in the world and i only wish they were as concerned with the human rights of people in darfur, iran, somalia, libya, etc... as they are with palestinians'.

    the US' blind, unilateral, unwavering support of israel and their denial about the atrocities commited by israel don't help, of course, but the fact is, the arab world is just as stubborn and in denial as the palestinians and blinded by their hatred of the US and israel.

    oh, and someone in israel has to finally stand up to those fucking idiotic fundie settlers and smack some sense into them. or sterilise the over-breeding idiots and end the crazy expansionist zionist madness once and for all. all the israelis i know hate these morons and are fucking sick and tired of risking their lives during their military service defending these idiots.

    Quote Originally Posted by january View Post
    How many UN resolutions has Israel defied? They laugh in the face of the UN and their efforts to stop them, backed by the ever vigilant watchdog of the US. The US came out today and said that we have a "very special relationship" (ie., based on a Biblical passage) with Israel, and that we will do anything we can to protect them. It would be almost laughable if it wasn't so damn sad. The funny thing is is that Bush used Saddam's defying various UN resolutions as an excuse for war, while Israel has violated more UN resolutions that Iraq ever had. Israel will never be forced to comply with international law, they've made that clear. In 2002, they even intensified their attacks in the West Bank when told they needed to withdraw immediately. They have made a mockery of the whole process, and as a result the US has lost all its credibility in the eyes of the world. You want to know what really provokes terrorism against the US? You need to take a closer look at our unflinching relationship with Israel.
    ok, i admit i'm too tired to read this whole thread but i would like to say something about the UN resolutions. i used to think the same way as you until i actually started working in the field and participating in israel-palestine resolutions in the human rights council. fact is, because there are so many muslim countries and they get the support of all the NAM countries - i.e. the vast majority of voting countries in the council, they have an easy majority and don't even have to listen to anyone else's arguments. those texts are never the result of a negotiation. instead, these countries stong-arm the council and get these totally one-sided texts passed and if you even try to suggest they maybe put something in there about palestinian terrorist attacks or, say, the way palestinian authorities sometimes manipulate and use their own people as cannon fodder by placing strategic things like weapon reserves right next to schools and hopsitals so that when they are attacked, there will be heavy civilian casuaties and they can then play the victims for the world's medias, you get shot down.
    so in a way, you can't really blame israel for then defying these texts because they are totally biased and unilateral but since these things are passed by votes, you always end up with everyone voting in favor of the texts and only Canada votes against, the EU either abstains or votes against and then a handful of other more moderate countries that refuse to vote on a one-sided, unbalanced text, abstain as well.

    don't get me wrong, i think the HR council has done a lot of good in other areas but fact is, the middle eastern conflict is way too politicised to ever be resolved by votes among states who have other things at stake and aren't voting solely based on their concern for human rights.
    Last edited by sputnik; January 9th, 2009 at 01:22 PM.
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