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Thread: First gay soldier to be fired, for being gay, under Obama's watch

  1. #121
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Bull in the your world, which isn't the one everyone else has a say in. Read the studies, watched the documentaries, and grew up with people we all knew were gay before they figured it out. The signs were there forever.
    Hate to break it to you, but they knew. They probably knew as kids. They were just in denial.

    Grim, 6 billion people in the world, not one, ok? Oh, and my library card had to be replaced every year or so from excessive use, so stop insulting everyone who disagrees with you.
    I just find it unusual that someone with no stake in the matter would read ALL the studies and watch ALL the documentaries for some reason, and yet amazingly always seem to come out (hah) on the side of the religious nuts and gay marriage opponents, even doing her damndest to somehow (despite reality) defend their actions and attitudes as something other than baseless bigotry.

    Perhaps it just.. seems.. a bit... OFF. SO yes, i call into question your claims of having read the studies or watched documentaries. I call it very much into question. I don't buy it.
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  2. #122
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    grew up with people we all knew were gay before they figured it out. The signs were there forever.
    This would seem to be strong proof for it's being inate.

    If there were signs before 'they figured it out' then that would indicate that it wasn't something they chose. It was there all along.



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  3. #123
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    but maybe they learned it from watching Dynasty *snort*
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  4. #124
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    This would seem to be strong proof for it's being inate.

    If there were signs before 'they figured it out' then that would indicate that it wasn't something they chose. It was there all along.
    When did I ever say sexuality wasn't innate? NEVER. Go back and you will see I have said numerous times, I think, I believe people are born gay. I didn't wake up one day and decide to drool over men, I just did. I can't make myself want a woman either.

    Can I prove my belief? Can I convince, through compelling scientific evidence, my belief is fact. No, I can not. Totally different.



  5. #125
    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    That it does, but the conservative grasp of free speech is this: i can say what i want, but if you disagree then you're infringing on my free speech rights.

    Grimm, I honestly think both sides have that biased view of free speech. People on the left are the first to say people should be 'fired' for spouting 'hate speech' whenever someone merely expresses a negative or unpopular opinion about a group of people. Don Imus sound familiar? Yes, what he said was very rude and I support people getting organized and sending word to advertisers that they will boycott their products if they sponsor _____(racist, sexist, homophobic) programming. I don't think people should be accused of hate crimes or hate speech just because what they say is thoughtless or mean, even if it is something directed at a group I belong to, such as being insensitive towards a rape victim or calling feminists nasty names. I truly support all free speech. I can take it. Popular speech rarely needs defending, so it's all or nothing for me.
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  6. #126
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crumpet View Post
    That it does, but the conservative grasp of free speech is this: i can say what i want, but if you disagree then you're infringing on my free speech rights.

    Grimm, I honestly think both sides have that biased view of free speech. People on the left are the first to say people should be 'fired' for spouting 'hate speech' whenever someone merely expresses a negative or unpopular opinion about a group of people.
    Ah no. There's a difference between an opinion and hate speech. Hate speech is generally baseless bigotry. It's purposeless, irrational and factless.

    Don Imus sound familiar? Yes, what he said was very rude and I support people getting organized and sending word to advertisers that they will boycott their products if they sponsor _____(racist, sexist, homophobic) programming. I don't think people should be accused of hate crimes or hate speech just because what they say is thoughtless or mean, even if it is something directed at a group I belong to, such as being insensitive towards a rape victim or calling feminists nasty names.
    read above.

    I truly support all free speech. I can take it. Popular speech rarely needs defending, so it's all or nothing for me.
    I don't. People are stupid and need leashes to keep them from hurting others for spurious reasons.

    Maybe when we evolve and learn how to control ourselves it won't be needed. Till then, people are stupid, ignorant sheep.
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  7. #127
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Hate to break it to you, but they knew. They probably knew as kids. They were just in denial.

    I just find it unusual that someone with no stake in the matter would read ALL the studies and watch ALL the documentaries for some reason, and yet amazingly always seem to come out (hah) on the side of the religious nuts and gay marriage opponents, even doing her damndest to somehow (despite reality) defend their actions and attitudes as something other than baseless bigotry.

    Perhaps it just.. seems.. a bit... OFF. SO yes, i call into question your claims of having read the studies or watched documentaries. I call it very much into question. I don't buy it.
    I'm not Jewish and I have studied the Holocaust. I am not Muslim, but I have studied the history of Islam. I'm not Catholic, but I have studied Catholicism. There are many topics I have no personal vested interest in, yet, I read, watch, and learnfor one simple reason. I enjoy gaining knowledge and knowing the other players on the field. Try it some time.

    I will defend everyone's right to freedom of speech and religion, regardless of who doesn't like what they say or how they worship. As someone who consciously chooses to objectively observe, I have developed the ability to understand the thought process for all sides in a conflict.

    You perceive me, a vocal religion opponent, as a fundie, which proves you see what you want to see, as I have spoken out on this board against fundamentalists and their BS. I began doing that at twelve years old. So, you are WRONG! AGAIN!

    Again, see what assumption? It really isn't working for you.



  8. #128
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Also, i would like to point out that a number of nations across the planet (UK, Israel, etc) have allowed gays to serve openly and AMAZINGLY there has been no loss of "unit cohesion" or whatever bullshit nonsense the wingers puke up as an excuse.

    So why would the US be a special case?
    Exactly.
    Quote Originally Posted by crumpet View Post
    I was very excited to see what Obama could bring to the table. I'm just getting sick and tired of how his sycophants who are soooooo invested in him being seen as a success no matter what her does, will consistently turn a blind eye to any promises he doesn't make good on or any bigoted decisions he makes and make excuses that they wouldn't let fly for anyone else. Of course, there is always the George Bush safety blanket to fall back on: no matter how badly Obama fucks up (I'm not saying he has) someone will always use the "well you can't expect someone to be able to undo what GW screwed up in only 4 years" . Then next election it will be "Well, he only had 8 years to undo all the mess GW created" and so on and so on. 100 years from now people will still be blaming everything wrong in the world on that one man and it's just getting stupid. It's as though Congress, the Senate, and state governments aren't even a factor. Yet, if Obama makes a misstep it will all be because the Senate or Congress didn't do this or that and sabotaged his great efforts. How convenient.

    I'm also sick of him getting a pass on the gay marriage issue when anyone else who disagrees is called all kinds of names from bigot to fundie to whatever else. Anyone else who doesn't support gay marriage should be fired from their job. A fucking beauty queen who has no real power at all should lose her title for not believing in something but the leader of the free world thinks the same way ands still manages to be held up at the savior of the earth. What's up with that? If Carrie Prejean had been smart she'd have answered that question with, "I feel the same way about gay marriage that President Obama does.....I think marriage should be between a man and a woman." I'm sure perez Hilton voted for Obama...has he ever called obama a cunt? I don't think so.
    That made me laugh. Seriously. I saw her interviewed this morning before I left work, and this woman is seriously dumb. Just sayin' cause it made me laugh and all(in this depressing thread)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel1973 View Post
    ah, I do see race & sexual orientation as something that isn't a choice. something that can't be helped. dadt is the same to me as saying rosa parks should've just moved on to the back of the bus - where the hell would we be today? people saying "this isn't ok - I'm tired and I want to sit" can start a movement that can benefit others tremendously.
    Amen and Hallelujah to this!~~
    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    I thought about bringing the Rosa Parks example up earlier. Rosa chose not to move to the back of the bus, and she broke an unjust law, but it was still the law at the time. Her actions then led to massive protests and then changing the law.

    It was the same after Prop 8 passed in November. You had massive protests and now more states are legalizing or moving in the direction of legalizing same sex marriage. I think people keep expecting the government to always take the lead in civil rights issues, when the real change starts with the people applying the pressure to bring about that change.
    This was planned..she was I believe a secretary for a local group and it was decided she was going to do this-protests did not 'automatically' spring up..there were many many months of blacks carpooling and walking miles to work while boycotting the bus system. It took over a year for change..with just the stupid Birmingham bus company! Plus this happened in a time of radical challenge to authority, in a climate of radical transformation and protest(Not just for racial equality, but think Vietnam). the climate around the Civil Rights movement was good-there was a symbiosis between this movement and other movements. They fed off eachother. That climate is lacking now. Gays would be going it alone, not part of a 'greater' social movement and protesting. It is harder that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cali View Post
    I think we have to keep this all in perspective though. The man has only been in office 114 days, and most of the government agencies aren't anywhere near staffed up. You have to realize, when the Obama Admin came in, they pretty much cleaned house and sent everyone from the Bush Admin packing. So you have major agencies that don't even have the heads appointed yet, nevermind the undersecretaries and the basic pencil pushers who answer the phones and respond to constituents. The impact of that is that many of the issues don't even have the staff or personnel in place to research them and make reccommendations to get the ball rolling. So why aren't people being placed? Because they have to be vetted and confirmed by Congress and that is taking ages. You can read more about this here:
    Topic A -- Obama's Appointee Problems - washingtonpost.com

    I voted for Obama and he's not getting a pass for me. I'm pissed that he didn't take a harder line with the GOP and push through the stimulus bill as it was. A lot of really important things were stripped from the bill, and he had the ability to get it through in tact. Once it became clear that the GOP was going to throw a hissy fit he should have thrown this across-the-aisle BS aside. I'm not happy about the handling of the torture situation, nor about the DADT situation. But in many respects, our government is in triage mode: they've got to handle the collapsing economy, healthcare crisis, fighting 2 wars, Somali pirates, and deal with the torture / Guantonomo mess- on top of trying to keep the GOP from a full-scale political war. That is ALOT of stuff to deal with, and most of it needs action NOW. I think the general view of the Administration right now is that they've got to handle the big crises that are threatening to melt down. Then they are going to focus on the less pressing issues. Gay marriage and DADT are very important issues and we want them to be resolved as he promised. But it just isn't realistic to demand that it be changed RIGHT NOW, this instant, in light of the other crises and the lack of staff.

    I'm in wait-and-see mode, because we are just at the very beginning of this Administration.
    As much as I agree with Grimm, I agree with this as well. I am in a wait and see mode. This issue is not occurring in a vacuum alone and isolated from others. This battle may have to be placed on the backburner, for the greater good for now, unfortunately. It sucks, but it may be a question of which do you treat first, a major wound, or a small one-and if you treat the small one first, you may not get the chance to treat the major ones..you know? I hate the whole situation..and Blame W! *fucker..dead yet?*
    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    The biggest difference I've noticed with the black civil rights movement and the gay civil rights movement is that there isn't any organized and sustainable pressure from gays on the government like there was with blacks in the 60's.

    For example, a lot of gays are just expecting Obama to take the lead on gay rights when Kennedy didn't take the lead of civil rights. The civil rights movement was already in full swing, and Kennedy had no choice but to deal with it. If gays expect Obama to address gay rights then they're going to have to keep applying the pressure, otherwise he can just drag his feet.

    Plus, people seem to have this idea that as soon as Obama got into office suddenly things were suppose to magically change overnight. Hell, even Obama found out the hard way that 'change' doesn't happen overnight when he was trying to be bipartisan with Republicans. When it comes to social issues real change starts with ALL parties involved, not just a specific politician, even if it's a president.
    See, I can agree with this also. The real modern gay rights movement did not even get going at all until the late sixties early seventies. It really did not start until Stonewall..in 1969. Gays are late players in the civil rights arena. Look at how long it took to get justice and equality for blacks..and there is still discrimination, of course. But realize also that the major changes happening for blacks were part of, and benefitted and benefitted from, other changes happening at the same time. Was the Civil War really more about Slavery, or more about State's Rights and the South being tired of being dictated to by the North, and having it's economy controlled by Northern interests and money? Maybe more of the latter than most would be willing to admit. Was the Emancipation Proclamation more about equality and Freedom, or more about being a timely wartime tactic to sow dissension in the South? Was the War more about slavery, or secession? Was the secession more about state's rights vs. the Federal gov., or slavery?

    The civil rights movement in the 50's and 60's also occurred during a time of great change and social upheaval and mass protests about all kinds of things..and the movement really DID take advantage of Federal involvement-when Eisenhower made the decision to send Troops to Little Rock Central High School in 1957, when the Topeka desegregation case was decided in the 50's-that was FEDERAL involvement along with the boycotts and protests-and it sure did give a shot in the arm to the movement, didn't it?


    There is not another catalyst for which the Gay Rights movement can attach itself to at the moment, or at least not another major one. JMO.
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  9. #129
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crumpet View Post
    That it does, but the conservative grasp of free speech is this: i can say what i want, but if you disagree then you're infringing on my free speech rights.

    Grimm, I honestly think both sides have that biased view of free speech. People on the left are the first to say people should be 'fired' for spouting 'hate speech' whenever someone merely expresses a negative or unpopular opinion about a group of people. Don Imus sound familiar? Yes, what he said was very rude and I support people getting organized and sending word to advertisers that they will boycott their products if they sponsor _____(racist, sexist, homophobic) programming. I don't think people should be accused of hate crimes or hate speech just because what they say is thoughtless or mean, even if it is something directed at a group I belong to, such as being insensitive towards a rape victim or calling feminists nasty names. I truly support all free speech. I can take it. Popular speech rarely needs defending, so it's all or nothing for me.
    Good point crumpet. If one group has free speech, everyone should have it. No one should face legal issues because they spoke about something which ticked off someone. Thicken your skin if you can't take it.



  10. #130
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    I can go back and drag up all our old arguments if you like.

    I distilled your position into this: Bigotry is ok when it's religiously inspired, and if you disagree with it then you're intolerant of that intolerance and are apparently wrong as a result.

    We went 50 pages. That's what it was.

    Pretending God said you could be an asshole does not inherently mean you can be. Period. Religion can go fuck itself in that regard, as well as anybody who supports such a notion.
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  11. #131
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    I can go back and drag up all our old arguments if you like.

    I distilled your position into this: Bigotry is ok when it's religiously inspired, and if you disagree with it then you're intolerant of that intolerance and are apparently wrong as a result.

    We went 50 pages. That's what it was.

    God does not give anybody license to oppress others. Period. Religion can go fuck itself in that regard, as well as anybody who supports such a notion.
    Drag them up. Nothing has changed has it? Was I correct? Has DOMA been repealed? Has DADT been repealed? Have the fundies come out in droves, even if stealthily, to fight it down? Hmm? No. No. Yes. Same crap, different day.

    You made assumptions based on one simple issue. I disagreed with you and pointed out flaws in your emotionally based ideas.

    Bigotry borne from bigotry is still bigotry. It's like black people who have never even spoken to a white person hating all whites because of history. It is misdirected hatred. It doesn't matter who threw the first punch. What you got so heated about was someone telling you how the fight fire with fire approach would not work and what would. Again, your perceptions.

    Religion is a crock and I have known that forever. I also know that if the right winger fundies are correct, and there is a God, it isn't my place to tell everyone how to appease him. Free will. I have enough on my plate. I don't have time to look at anyone else's.



  12. #132
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    It's not bigotry to oppose bigotry. You can't be fucking bigoted against bigotry. That's asinine. I believe i used the term asinine to desvribe it the last time. It's still asinine.

    What's changed since last time: more people are standing up, more people are telling the religious nuts to piss off, numerous states have gone forward with gay marriage, soldiers are standing up and saying "no more".

    It would seem fire is working where sitting down and shutting up didn't.
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  13. #133
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Grimm, my problem is: If Obama goes right off the bat for gay rights in different areas, and it ignites enough controversy that conservatives are able to use it and get the oval office again in 2012, would it be worth it? A good thing now, that could bring a much worse thing later? It is a difficult thing to ponder. Maybe it is all about timing? Sometimes that is what it is all about, don't you think?
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  14. #134
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    It's not bigotry to oppose bigotry. You can't be fucking bigoted against bigotry. That's asinine. I believe i used the term asinine to desvribe it the last time. It's still asinine.
    Hate is hate. Trying to whitewash it is not going to change it.

    Secondly, you supported extremes to which some members of the gay community went. If straight people had done that to gays, I would have called them out on it. So yes, despising hatred it fine, but when you stoop to depths equal, or below, the very entities you revile, you get stuck with the label.

    How asinine is it to use the,"They started it!", argument as a pathetic excuse for some of the behavior exhibited. Anyone who engages in vile actions borne from hatred will get the bigot label. Fight with some pride and self-respect.



  15. #135
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    hating bigotry is good. opposing it is good. anything that gets people passionately against it is good.

    hating racism is good. hating anti-semitism is good. hating ALL the isms is good.

    saying otherwise is nonsensical.

    secondly, what extremes? lol

    gays have put up with the extremes of being butchered, abused, murdered, lynched and otherwise. Please clarify what you consider "extremes" in that regard.

    When gay people go around on pogroms and introduce legislation to marginalize another group, again, ill eat my fucking HAT
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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