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Thread: First gay soldier to be fired, for being gay, under Obama's watch

  1. #106
    Elite Member Cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crumpet View Post
    I was very excited to see what Obama could bring to the table. I'm just getting sick and tired of how his sycophants who are soooooo invested in him being seen as a success no matter what her does, will consistently turn a blind eye to any promises he doesn't make good on or any bigoted decisions he makes and make excuses that they wouldn't let fly for anyone else. Of course, there is always the George Bush safety blanket to fall back on: no matter how badly Obama fucks up (I'm not saying he has) someone will always use the "well you can't expect someone to be able to undo what GW screwed up in only 4 years" . Then next election it will be "Well, he only had 8 years to undo all the mess GW created" and so on and so on. 100 years from now people will still be blaming everything wrong in the world on that one man and it's just getting stupid. It's as though Congress, the Senate, and state governments aren't even a factor. Yet, if Obama makes a misstep it will all be because the Senate or Congress didn't do this or that and sabotaged his great efforts. How convenient.

    I'm also sick of him getting a pass on the gay marriage issue when anyone else who disagrees is called all kinds of names from bigot to fundie to whatever else.
    I think we have to keep this all in perspective though. The man has only been in office 114 days, and most of the government agencies aren't anywhere near staffed up. You have to realize, when the Obama Admin came in, they pretty much cleaned house and sent everyone from the Bush Admin packing. So you have major agencies that don't even have the heads appointed yet, nevermind the undersecretaries and the basic pencil pushers who answer the phones and respond to constituents. The impact of that is that many of the issues don't even have the staff or personnel in place to research them and make reccommendations to get the ball rolling. So why aren't people being placed? Because they have to be vetted and confirmed by Congress and that is taking ages. You can read more about this here:
    Topic A -- Obama's Appointee Problems - washingtonpost.com

    I voted for Obama and he's not getting a pass for me. I'm pissed that he didn't take a harder line with the GOP and push through the stimulus bill as it was. A lot of really important things were stripped from the bill, and he had the ability to get it through in tact. Once it became clear that the GOP was going to throw a hissy fit he should have thrown this across-the-aisle BS aside. I'm not happy about the handling of the torture situation, nor about the DADT situation. But in many respects, our government is in triage mode: they've got to handle the collapsing economy, healthcare crisis, fighting 2 wars, Somali pirates, and deal with the torture / Guantonomo mess- on top of trying to keep the GOP from a full-scale political war. That is ALOT of stuff to deal with, and most of it needs action NOW. I think the general view of the Administration right now is that they've got to handle the big crises that are threatening to melt down. Then they are going to focus on the less pressing issues. Gay marriage and DADT are very important issues and we want them to be resolved as he promised. But it just isn't realistic to demand that it be changed RIGHT NOW, this instant, in light of the other crises and the lack of staff.

    I'm in wait-and-see mode, because we are just at the very beginning of this Administration.

  2. #107
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    I am not surprised Rosa Parks was brought into this. Let's compare and contrast, since the gay movement seems to love doing so.

    *Emancipation Proclamation-Second Part- Issued January 1, 1863
    *Rosa Parks arrest for breaking a law-December 1, 1955
    *Civil Rights Act- Signed into law by LBJ July 2, 1964

    One hundred and one years after the EP, the descendants of slaves received their civil rights. Obama has been in office a bit over one hundred days and people are crying that DADT and DOMA are not being repealed swiftly enough?

    The protests are beginning now. Even if the gay rights movement achieves its goal in one tenth of the time it took from EP to TCRA64, you are still looking at one decade, give or take.

    The perceptions and climate surrounding this particular issue are much different. With slavery and black civil rights, it was two opposed groups, racist whites and blacks along with those who supported racial equality. This is a bit different, as those who do not support gay rights come from every ethnic, financial, cultural, and regional background. While the black movement faced one barrier to break down, the gay movement must break down many smaller ones.

    There are numerous angles from which homosexuality can be viewed, no argument as to which are correct and which are not, from which race could not be. Race or ethnicity is proven to be innate, while sexuality is, but isn't concretely proven to be so. Religion, even those which are steadfastly against racial and gender specific discrimination, may demonize homosexuals. Some people who hold no religious beliefs, per se, may rebuke racism, ageism, and chauvinism, while supporting homosexual discrimination.

    The sociological environment may not be viewed as tolerant or progressive, but it has to be seen as what it is, and approached accordingly. With that being said, those fighting for gay rights must be practical in their views when observing timetables, progression, and gaining what they want. It won't happen in a week and you can't put time demands on achieving the goal.



  3. #108
    Elite Member celeb_2006's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    They believe in a country which they feel is oppressing them? So, basically, they want the right to fight and die for a country which will not give them what they believe are basic freedoms? Wouldn't that be the enemy?
    Again, the country (and military) are NOT the ones oppressing them. It's the people who put those policies in place to blame, not the country or military inherent. Last time I checked, the constitution and whatnot doesn't say anything about all straight men being equal.

    As bad as some things are in the US for gay people, others things are much better than in other places like the middle east. And to want to serve your country because you appreciate your freedoms is much more honorable than some guy that signs up and then when the s**t hits the fan, runs away to Canada or pulls out a 'conscientous objector' out of his ass.

    Not that hard of a concept, and hardly stupid (not saying you are stupid of course ).

  4. #109
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crumpet View Post
    He broke an unjust rule:

    I admire bucking the system for a greater cause but still accept that I may be unjustly punished for doing so.......until the rules are finally changed. Lots of people get arrested protesting things. They accept getting arrested as a sacrifice for standing up for what they believe in. I think pot laws are ridiculous and unjust, doesn't mean I won't get arrested if I'm caught with it.
    Where is it that people think he isn't going to accept the consequences? He clearly has no choice. He's trying to have the consequences and the law that spawned them removed. He's sacrificing his career to try.


    He was punished for being honest:

    So was Miss California.....and? I mean, she kept her state crown but possibly lost the national title, we will never know for sure.
    No, again she did not lose because of that. She would have lost anyway. She shouldn't have a crown at all given the lies she's told. Other contestants have been disqualified similarely, but for some reason because she invoked Jesus and thinks her right to free speech is under attack (which it isn't) she's become a media whore to the uneducated.

    When she is called names and verbally bullied for what she said she is reminded by folks on the left that free speech has consequences.
    That it does, but the conservative grasp of free speech is this: i can say what i want, but if you disagree then you're infringing on my free speech rights.

    Well, so does civil disobedience.
    yes it does.
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  5. #110
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Gays have been fighting for equal rights since the Stonewall riots. This is not a new fight. How much longer do they need to wait?
    It's no longer a dog whistle, it's a fucking trombone


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  6. #111
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    . Race or ethnicity is proven to be innate, while sexuality is, but isn't concretely proven to be so.
    Fail, and incorrect. Vastly incorrect. Pretty much all reputable medical and psychological councils agree through inummerable studies both mental and biophysical. For gods sake, there are even visible differences in brain stucture between straights and gays.

    Stop feeding that lie.

    Religion has been demonizing gays since as far back as we can remember. That's not a new threat. It's ever present.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  7. #112
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celeb_2006 View Post
    Again, the country (and military) are NOT the ones oppressing them. It's the people who put those policies in place to blame, not the country or military inherent. Last time I checked, the constitution and whatnot doesn't say anything about all straight men being equal.

    As bad as some things are in the US for gay people, others things are much better than in other places like the middle east. And to want to serve your country because you appreciate your freedoms is much more honorable than some guy that signs up and then when the s**t hits the fan, runs away to Canada or pulls out a 'conscientous objector' out of his ass.

    Not that hard of a concept, and hardly stupid (not saying you are stupid of course ).
    First, go back and read the posts to find out who said it was stupid.

    If someone is willing to fight for a country which oppresses him, while utilizing him even to the point of death, then on a basic level, that is ridiculous. I can understand believing in the ideals this country was founded upon, but that has nothing to do with what is going on today. If that person's need to defend the very country which he feels grants liberties to everyone, except him, is so strong, he signs a contract to deny who he is to satisfy that need, he should not complain when that very country kicks him in the ass and throws him out on it.

    Hardly incomprehensible.



  8. #113
    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    If someone is willing to fight for a country which oppresses him, while utilizing him even to the point of death, then on a basic level, that is ridiculous. I can understand believing in the ideals this country was founded upon, but that has nothing to do with what is going on today. If that person's need to defend the very country which he feels grants liberties to everyone, except him, is so strong, he signs a contract to deny who he is to satisfy that need, he should not complain when that very country kicks him in the ass and throws him out on it.
    So blacks in the military before it's desegregation had no right to be upset by the treatment they recieved? I mean, the segregation was in place before they joined. Were they ridiculous?

    Those men were willing to fight and die for a country that oppressed them, the same as these people are.

    It's so basic, you have to be willfully blind not to see it.
    It's no longer a dog whistle, it's a fucking trombone


    All of God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.


    If I wanted the government in my womb I'd fuck a Senator

  9. #114
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Fail, and incorrect. Vastly incorrect. Pretty much all reputable medical and psychological councils agree through inummerable studies both mental and biophysical. For gods sake, there are even visible differences in brain stucture between straights and gays.

    Stop feeding that lie.

    Religion has been demonizing gays since as far back as we can remember. That's not a new threat. It's ever present.
    EPIC FAIL for you. Completely incorrect, based on wishful thinking and optimism.

    It is not a lie. Sexuality has yet to be scientifically accepted as fact as an innate trait, while skin color is proven to be genetic trait, as is gender, hair color, eye, color, etc.

    I have read the studies. I have viewed the evidence supporting different brain structure, etc. in gays, lesbians, and transgendered, yet the debate is still raging over nurture versus nature.

    Evidence being collected through research and the evidence collected labeled as FACT are two totally different steps in the theoretic process. One comes before the other. The scientific community is working towards the FACT step. So no, not accepted as FACT. Yet.



  10. #115
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    The biggest difference I've noticed with the black civil rights movement and the gay civil rights movement is that there isn't any organized and sustainable pressure from gays on the government like there was with blacks in the 60's.

    For example, a lot of gays are just expecting Obama to take the lead on gay rights when Kennedy didn't take the lead of civil rights. The civil rights movement was already in full swing, and Kennedy had no choice but to deal with it. If gays expect Obama to address gay rights then they're going to have to keep applying the pressure, otherwise he can just drag his feet.

    Plus, people seem to have this idea that as soon as Obama got into office suddenly things were suppose to magically change overnight. Hell, even Obama found out the hard way that 'change' doesn't happen overnight when he was trying to be bipartisan with Republicans. When it comes to social issues real change starts with ALL parties involved, not just a specific politician, even if it's a president.

  11. #116
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchcurlgirl View Post
    So blacks in the military before it's desegregation had no right to be upset by the treatment they recieved? I mean, the segregation was in place before they joined. Were they ridiculous?

    Those men were willing to fight and die for a country that oppressed them, the same as these people are.

    It's so basic, you have to be willifully blind not to see it.
    Do you know how many black soldiers were ostracized by the black community for working with the very government which was treating them like trash?

    While blacks were segregated in the military, there was no law saying,"Paint yourself white. If we see dark skin, you are outta here." DADT makes it clear you live a lie or leave.



  12. #117
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    EPIC FAIL for you. Completely incorrect, based on wishful thinking and optimism.

    It is not a lie. Sexuality has yet to be scientifically accepted as fact as an innate trait, while skin color is proven to be genetic trait, as is gender, hair color, eye, color, etc.

    I have read the studies. I have viewed the evidence supporting different brain structure, etc. in gays, lesbians, and transgendered, yet the debate is still raging over nurture versus nature.

    Evidence being collected through research and the evidence collected labeled as FACT are two totally different steps in the theoretic process. One comes before the other. The scientific community is working towards the FACT step. So no, not accepted as FACT. Yet.
    Bull. Which aspects of the scientific community are not accepting? Is this the same 10th doctor or researcher that pretends global warming is a myth?

    right, and I'm sure you've read the studies. Please. Let's not inflate ourselves.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  13. #118
    Elite Member celeb_2006's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    First, go back and read the posts to find out who said it was stupid.

    If someone is willing to fight for a country which oppresses him, while utilizing him even to the point of death, then on a basic level, that is ridiculous. I can understand believing in the ideals this country was founded upon, but that has nothing to do with what is going on today. If that person's need to defend the very country which he feels grants liberties to everyone, except him, is so strong, he signs a contract to deny who he is to satisfy that need, he should not complain when that very country kicks him in the ass and throws him out on it.

    Hardly incomprehensible.

    I know, the thing is, at least you made some observations and therefore your post was something I could respond to.

    At any rate, I guess this is something we disagree on but it's not the country that discriminates against people, it's the people who put those policies in place. For example I cannot blame an entire country for oppressing women's rights when the very people in charge put in policies that ensure women are third class citizens.

    True they knew what the conditions were when they signed up, but that doesn't make what they are doing wrong. I think their civil disobedience is quite honorable, and the only way to challenge the status quo. These people are not looking for a free educational ride and then running away to Canada when wars start.

  14. #119
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    *flips through google re: studies on homosexuality being innate or not*

    Interesting to note, the ones that say that it isn't all seem to come from questionable sources.. religious sites, researchers who have been called into question for bias.. or ones that simply make assertions with nothing to back it up.

    Amusing.
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  15. #120
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Bull. Which aspects of the scientific community are not accepting? Is this the same 10th doctor or researcher that pretends global warming is a myth?

    right, and I'm sure you've read the studies. Please. Let's not inflate ourselves.
    Bull in the your world, which isn't the one everyone else has a say in. Read the studies, watched the documentaries, and grew up with people we all knew were gay before they figured it out. The signs were there forever.

    Stop insulting everyone who disagrees with you. I hate to be the one to bring the reality check, but you are neither omnipotent nor infallible.

    Quote Originally Posted by celeb_2006 View Post
    I know, the thing is, at least you made some observations and therefore your post was something I could respond to.

    At any rate, I guess this is something we disagree on but it's not the country that discriminates against people, it's the people who put those policies in place. For example I cannot blame an entire country for oppressing women's rights when the very people in charge put in policies that ensure women are third class citizens.

    True they knew what the conditions were when they signed up, but that doesn't make what they are doing wrong. I think their civil disobedience is quite honorable, and the only way to challenge the status quo. These people are not looking for a free educational ride and then running away to Canada when wars start.
    celeb, I have disagreed with many people, but i will always respect and listen to someone who can civilly discuss something, which you are doing.

    Sadly, when you fight for the country, you are fighting for everyone in it. I just could not personally reconcile handing the master the whip, so to speak. Yes, the DADT is wrong, since whom one chooses to be intimate with does not affect the job performance, but it is still there. Until it is gone, anyone who is gay knows they run the risk of working hard and being kicked out for just being different.

    If I may relate a personal story: In high school, a lesbian was a member of a group consisting of both males and females. When some found out, I already knew, they wanted her kicked out because they did not want to share a locker room, changing room, etc. with her. When I was approached for my vote, which should never have been asked for imho, I answered simply,"We've shared locker rooms and changing rooms with teenaged guys." She stayed.

    If a lesbian hits on me, hell, its as great an ego boost as some dude doing it. You want to look and ogle, do it. Don't care what's in your pants.
    Last edited by Tati; May 16th, 2009 at 03:47 PM.



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