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Thread: First gay soldier to be fired, for being gay, under Obama's watch

  1. #61
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    beats the hell out of me.

    Perhaps they see what the country could be, if only people lived in it how it should be. Affect change from the inside. Clearly Choi tried, with Knights Out.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  2. #62
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    This is no different than signing a contract with a private corporation. If you don't like the terms, don't take the position! If he took the position, broke the rules, and got caught, what is the controversy?

    Ok, so DADT may not be fair, but we are looking at the rules as they are not as some would like them to be.

    Go ask a straight white military man would he rather be in the shower with a straight man of ethnic minority or a gay white male. Be prepared for four letter words. Face it, people do not see gay the same as race.



  3. #63
    Elite Member McJag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    So all the black soldiers back in ww2 that were segregated should have just shut up and sat down then?


    Think about conscientious objectors. Same idea.
    For Petes sake,Grimm! WTF? That doesn't even compute with this! Back then,people had a lot of wierd ideas.
    As far as conscientious objectors,you don't find a lot in the military. They were drafted-40 years ago!
    This guy knew the rules. He broke the rules.
    Until the rules change,you have to go with them. If he had kept his mouth shut,it is just a question of time.
    He threw himself on his sword right before the calvery arrived. How dumb is that??
    Boils down to : do you want to be right or do you want to be a soldier? He made a choice.
    The other gays in military are getting promotions,doing a great job and they will get the reward.
    I didn't start out to collect diamonds, but somehow they just kept piling up.-Mae West

  4. #64
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    This is no different than signing a contract with a private corporation. If you don't like the terms, don't take the position! If he took the position, broke the rules, and got caught, what is the controversy?
    He broke the rules by being honest, that's a really interesting way to look at it. He broke the rules simply by being who he is and wanting the same freedom his colleagues have.

    Ok, so DADT may not be fair, but we are looking at the rules as they are not as some would like them to be.
    The rule should not exist.

    Go ask a straight white military man would he rather be in the shower with a straight man of ethnic minority or a gay white male. Be prepared for four letter words. Face it, people do not see gay the same as race.
    Go read Choi's letter. It seems a great many don't give a damn as long as he does his job.

    Secondly, more people are seeing orientation as the same as race. The concept is spreading and people are cluing in. Those that don't will eventually fade out as time progresses but until then THEY WILL HAVE TO ACCEPT CHANGE.

    They had to accept it before, they will again. Those that don't will eventually be in the minority and will be bulldozed.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  5. #65
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    He broke the rules by being honest, that's a really interesting way to look at it. He broke the rules simply by being who he is and wanting the same freedom his colleagues have.
    The rule was there, he broke it.



    The rule should not exist.
    Read the part of my post your statement is in response to. I believe I covered that! It doesn't matter what you, Choi, or anyone else feels about the rule. It was there when he joined, throughout the duration of his tenure, and when he got booted. He knew, he signed, he rolled the dice, and he crapped out. I don't agree with dry counties, but if I were to bring alcohol into them and get caught, tough. I knew the risk.



    Go read Choi's letter. It seems a great many don't give a damn as long as he does his job.

    Secondly, more people are seeing orientation as the same as race. The concept is spreading and people are cluing in. Those that don't will eventually fade out as time progresses but until then THEY WILL HAVE TO ACCEPT CHANGE.

    They had to accept it before, they will again. Those that don't will eventually be in the minority and will be bulldozed.
    I read it. It is a letter from someone wanting the rules bent for him, regardless of whether the rule is unfair or not. He isn't special and everyone who enters the military is agreeing to abide by every rule in place.

    He claims no one cared. That is hearsay and his opinion. Just as silence by many is being seen as acceptance overall, he may very well have been surrounded by those who felt compelled never to speak out on how they felt. Silence does not equal tolerance.



  6. #66
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McJag View Post
    For Petes sake,Grimm! WTF? That doesn't even compute with this! Back then,people had a lot of wierd ideas.
    They still do.

    As far as conscientious objectors,you don't find a lot in the military.
    They exist even now, soldiers given orders they can't in good conscience follow.

    They were drafted-40 years ago!
    I'm talking about the present. People already enlisted.

    This guy knew the rules. He broke the rules.
    he broke them by being honest. again, there's a disconnect: he was taught at west point and instilled with a set of values to always act right, even if the ules say it's wrong. Then he gets to active service, and suddenly because of discriminatory legislation, that entire set of values is turned upside down and he's told no, you have to hide.

    Until the rules change,you have to go with them. If he had kept his mouth shut,it is just a question of time.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA right, when's that ever happened? Sit down, be quiet, it will eventually be better?

    Live a lie, be dishonest, and maybe someday you won't have to?

    Pretty sure he didn't want to put up with that.

    He threw himself on his sword right before the calvery arrived. How dumb is that??
    A more apt analogy was he strapped some bombs to himself and blew himself up to bring attention to the issue, and he has.

    Boils down to : do you want to be right or do you want to be a soldier? He made a choice.
    he wants to be both, he wants his freedom and he wants to live honestly. I will not ever, EVER begrudge anybody that no matter how many mealymouths say "oh just be quiet."

    Nothing EVER changed by just being quiet.

    The other gays in military are getting promotions,doing a great job and they will get the reward.
    They're also living a lie and living dishonesty. Don't think that doesn't take a toll on your soul. You have NO idea.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  7. #67
    Elite Member Sweetie's Avatar
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    ^ He broke the rules by breaching the contract he signed. If he wanted said freedom he should have chose another profession. He knew the military was anti-gay when he signed up.

  8. #68
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    The rule was there, he broke it.
    The rule is injust, i'm glad he did.

    Read the part of my post your statement is in response to. I believe I covered that! It doesn't matter what you, Choi, or anyone else feels abotu the rule. It was there when he joined, through the duration of his tenure, and when he got booted. He knew, he signed, he rolled the dice, and he crapped out.
    He started Knights Out and tried to affect change on an unjust law that flies in the face of everything he was taught BY THE SAME MILITARY ORGANIZATION.


    He claims no one cared. That is hearsay and his opinion.
    A number of them have stood by him, it's all detailed outside of this letter. I seriously doubt he's just making shit up out of thin air.

    Just as silence by many is being seen as acceptance overall, he may very well have been surrounded by those who felt compelled never to speak out on how they felt. Silence does not equal tolerance.
    Silence kept is tolerance sustained. If they don't open their traps and bitch, then they're tolerating it. As long as they all do their jobs properly, WHO CARES wtf goes on in their heads.

    THAT is the argument put forth by Choi. It's not who you sleep with, it's how you do your damn job. If you're professional then there isn't a problem.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  9. #69
    Elite Member Sweetie's Avatar
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    Breaching a contact that you signed is not doing your job, nor is it being professional.

  10. #70
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetie View Post
    ^ He broke the rules by breaching the contract he signed. If he wanted said freedom he should have chose another profession. He knew the military was anti-gay when he signed up.
    He broke an unjust rule that shouldn't exist and is trying to get it scrapped. He'll reap the consequences of his actions, but he and others don't have to. It could be suspended pending repeal. It just wasn't.

    He basically charged the hill but was KIA.. but he's made a spectacular scene and drawn attention to it, thus forcing some forward momentum or SOME kind of answer out of the powers that be as well as discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetie View Post
    Breaching a contact that you signed is not doing your job, nor is it being professional.
    Disobeying an unjust law, doing the right thing and living honestly according to your training is. How do you just toss away the values that were isntilled in you by an organization that then tells you to disregard them?

    It's non sensical.
    Last edited by Tati; May 16th, 2009 at 03:43 PM.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  11. #71
    Elite Member Sweetie's Avatar
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    ^ drawing attention doesn't put food on your table.

  12. #72
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetie View Post
    ^ drawing attention doesn't put food on your table.
    He felt the sacrifice had to be made. If more followed it would lead to more change.

    I applaud him for his sacrifice and so should everybody else. This guy still wants to protect people and a nation that would tell him to live a lie in order to do so.

    I still can't decide if that's ridiculously noble or just plain stupid.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  13. #73
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    He began Knights Out and he got ousted from the military. He chose to feel better over keeping his job. His choice. He has to deal with the consequences.

    In the military, it is quite obvious how sexual orientation could affect a unit. In my job, I am not spending time closely quartered with my coworkers, sharing showers or other intimate areas. Females and males are separated in those situations, so having a gay person in those areas would be akin to unisex facilities.

    I have asked many military acquaintances how they feel about it and while many have no problem with gays in the military, they even conceded it could cause issues for both sides.

    Don't sign contracts you know damn well you can not fulfill. Whining about how unfair it is doesn't change the fact he entered an institution, which did not want him, under false pretenses. Now he has more time to devote to his group, since his inability to fulfill contractual terms has been found out.



  14. #74
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    ^^He began Knights Out and he got ousted from the military. He chose to feel better over keeping his job. His choice. He has to deal with the consequences.
    Feel better? That's looking down on it a bit don't you think?

    In the military, it is quite obvious how sexual orientation could affect a unit. In my job, I am not spending time closely quartered with my coworkers, sharing showers or other intimate areas. Females and males are separated in those situations, so having a gay person in those areas would be akin to unisex facilities.
    Yeah, same ol arguments from the same people who didn't want desegregation. Professionalism is professionalism. The people who have a problem with it are freaks who think every gay person wants to fucking rape them. They don't realize that 1), there are already gay soldiers all around them THEY JUST DONT KNOW WHICH ONES, and 2) they haven't been raped yet even though they're surrounded as professionalism has been maintained.

    See? Stupid.

    I have asked many military acquaintances how they feel about it and while many have no problem with gays in the military, they even conceded it could cause issues for both sides.
    See above.

    Gay soldiers already sleep in their damn tents.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  15. #75
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Feel better? That's looking down on it a bit don't you think?
    No, it is pointing out the obvious, even though those who want change refuse to accept that he should have just gone on quietly, since the environment is changing as we speak.

    Basically, he is a damned idiot. Those in his position, but who have common sense, will keep their jobs and be able to live freely when DADT is shot down.


    Yeah, same ol arguments from the same people who didn't want desegregation. Professionalism is professionalism. The people who have a problem with it are freaks who think every gay person wants to fucking rape them. They don't realize that 1), there are already gay soldiers all around them THEY JUST DONT KNOW WHICH ONES, and 2) they haven't been raped yet even though they're surrounded as professionalism has been maintained.

    See? Stupid.
    If you believe the military is delusional enough to believe some gays haven't come in, open your eyes. Did anyone mention rape? Stop exaggerating! As a female, I would not want to share facilities with straight men, so I can completely understand how someone who is gay would pose the same feelings as a member of the opposite sex. If you can't, too bad.

    The military goes beyond professionalism for the very reasons I explained in my post. The job requires more than professional interaction and space constraints. Do not act as if they are not ogling, just as a straight would do a member of the opposite sex. Separation of facilities has a basis in sexuality. Having gay members doesn't make it any easier. If anything it poses a new problem, albeit one which can be worked around. Straight woman or gay guy in a room with hot males? Let's see how long either can ignore the scenery.

    See above.

    Gay soldiers already sleep in their damn tents.
    As long as they don't wave the rainbow flag, they can continue to sleep in those tents. When they are found, its back home for them. I didn't write the military laws. I just had enough sense to avoid an institution which I would have to allow puppet strings to be attached to every aspect of my life to join.



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