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Thread: First gay soldier to be fired, for being gay, under Obama's watch

  1. #136
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    Exactly.


    This was planned..she was I believe a secretary for a local group and it was decided she was going to do this-protests did not 'automatically' spring up..there were many many months of blacks carpooling and walking miles to work while boycotting the bus system. It took over a year for change..with just the stupid Birmingham bus company! Plus this happened in a time of radical challenge to authority, in a climate of radical transformation and protest(Not just for racial equality, but think Vietnam). the climate around the Civil Rights movement was good-there was a symbiosis between this movement and other movements. They fed off eachother. That climate is lacking now. Gays would be going it alone, not part of a 'greater' social movement and protesting. It is harder that way.
    I know it was planned, but that's the point. Gays have to start becoming organized and come up with more organized protests, like the Prop 8 protests, to bring about change. Because if any group wants to gain civil rights they have to have sustained organized/on-going protests.

    On the issue of DADT gays pretty much accepted it under Clinton and Bush without any massive push to change it, and are now pushing for Obama to change it. That's the wrong tactic to take in a civil rights struggle. You don't wait for a particular politician or political party to come along to support your civil rights, you push everybody to gain those civil rights.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    See, I can agree with this also. The real modern gay rights movement did not even get going at all until the late sixties early seventies. It really did not start until Stonewall..in 1969. Gays are late players in the civil rights arena. Look at how long it took to get justice and equality for blacks..and there is still discrimination, of course. But realize also that the major changes happening for blacks were part of, and benefitted and benefitted from, other changes happening at the same time. Was the Civil War really more about Slavery, or more about State's Rights and the South being tired of being dictated to by the North, and having it's economy controlled by Northern interests and money? Maybe more of the latter than most would be willing to admit. Was the Emancipation Proclamation more about equality and Freedom, or more about being a timely wartime tactic to sow dissension in the South? Was the War more about slavery, or secession? Was the secession more about state's rights vs. the Federal gov., or slavery?

    The civil rights movement in the 50's and 60's also occurred during a time of great change and social upheaval and mass protests about all kinds of things..and the movement really DID take advantage of Federal involvement-when Eisenhower made the decision to send Troops to Little Rock Central High School in 1957, when the Topeka desegregation case was decided in the 50's-that was FEDERAL involvement along with the boycotts and protests-and it sure did give a shot in the arm to the movement, didn't it?


    There is not another catalyst for which the Gay Rights movement can attach itself to at the moment, or at least not another major one. JMO.
    I agree that the civil rights movement of the 60's benefited from other social changes taking place. But those civil rights that blacks gained wouldn't have happened, despite the societal upheavals, if they didn't organize and keep up the pressure. The power brokers won't just hand out civil rights unless that specific group is willing to keep fighting for them.

    And the federal involvement in the civil rights movement helped, but the movement didn't wait for federal help to get started. If the movement hadn't already been a steady force that was already in place the feds wouldn't have gotten involved to the level they did. And even with federal help things didn't change overnight.

    And gays actually have the perfect opportunity to fight for civil rights like marriage and overturning DADT right now. Because society is going through a major upheaval where things are changing. Gays just have to take the bull by the horns and use the current upheavals to garner those rights, instead of just waiting for Obama, or any other politician, to take the lead.

  2. #137
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    Grimm, my problem is: If Obama goes right off the bat for gay rights in different areas, and it ignites enough controversy that conservatives are able to use it and get the oval office again in 2012, would it be worth it?
    Soj, there is never a good time. The rethugs are gunning no matter WHAT he does. DIJON FUCKING MUSTARD! i mean really.

    A good thing now, that could bring a much worse thing later? It is a difficult thing to ponder. Maybe it is all about timing? Sometimes that is what it is all about, don't you think?
    Yes, and how long have we heard that? Timing seems pretty good about now. There's momentum.

    it doesn't ALL have to be done but give me a break: things that COULD be done with little or no effort aren't on the part of this administration. THAT is irksome.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  3. #138
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Here's an example.

    Four black children were killed in a Birmingham church. That crime was based on nothing more than racism. If a black man, maybe one related to a victim, had murdered 4 white children in retaliation, would that have not been bigotry in action?

    Bigotry can not stomp out bigotry. You seem to forget some of the nasty things you have said about those who have religious beliefs. Bigotry. Being gay doesn't exempt you from the bigotry stamp.

    My saying I can see BOTH sides, does not mean I support either. First, I hate religion. Second, I don't hate gays. Third, I think marriage is an archaic and useless institution everyone should run from. I am sure that offended some, but oh well. So I have ZERO personal vesting in gay marriage or gay rights. I can be OBJECTIVE. You can not.



  4. #139
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Soj, there is never a good time. The rethugs are gunning no matter WHAT he does. DIJON FUCKING MUSTARD! i mean really.



    Yes, and how long have we heard that? Timing seems pretty good about now. There's momentum.

    it doesn't ALL have to be done but give me a break: things that COULD be done with little or no effort aren't on the part of this administration. THAT is irksome.
    Well I am willing to give him a little time..it is early yet..this is one thing..one issue.

    And sure they are always gunning, but sometimes they have more ammunition than at others..mmmkay? And put your damn mustard away-especially that French shit!

    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    ...And gays actually have the perfect opportunity to fight for civil rights like marriage and overturning DADT right now. Because society is going through a major upheaval where things are changing. ...
    I disagree. Just how is society going through 'major upheaval where things are changing"...nothing like the Civil War, or the Sixties anywhere I look...

    Can you explain this to me...cause I am not seeing it.

    *Also do not forget how the Gay Rights Movement was damaged by having so many Gays with experience and leadership in this area killed of in the Gay Holocaust of the AIDS epidemic( before there was any effective treatment, when it was a death sentence and decimated the gay community, during the eighties and early nineties). I do not think we have recovered fully from that loss as a group, and as a movement.
    Last edited by Tati; May 16th, 2009 at 03:49 PM.
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  5. #140
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Here is the deal. If you push Obama and the dems to repeal DOMA and DADT right now and they do, you will give Jindal/Palin the White House and all the dems who got seats will be voted out ASAP.

    If that were to happen, the shift to the right would be quick and the right would move swiftly to enact laws barring everything gays want. The Supreme Court would be packed with fundies, consider how old some of the justices are. Those who voted in Dems in the last election could be swayed to vote for the rethugs again and you think you are pissed off now? Wait until the ultra cons get their hands ont he reins.

    You can't just run into the battlefield with no armor and no plan. You will be massacred and gain nothing.



  6. #141
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Here's an example.

    Four black children were killed in a Birmingham church. That crime was based on nothing more than racism. If a black man, maybe one related to a victim, had murdered 4 white children in retaliation, would that have not been bigotry in action?
    Opposing bigotry does not mean you return the favor. Hating bigotry does not mean you return the favor.

    If someone oppresses you, it doesn't mean return the favor.

    If you sit there, doing nothing, and someone oppresses you.. you simply stop them.

    STOPPING THEM DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE OPPRESSING THEM. It means you are putting an end to THEIR oppression.

    Bigotry can not stomp out bigotry. You seem to forget some of the nasty things you have said about those who have religious beliefs.
    Thanks for the wide brush, but you're again incorrect: I've said nasty things about people who hold bigoted views. The views they hold make them BAD PEOPLE, and are thus fair targets.

    it's like calling out a racist. Just because God said you could be a racist shitfuck does not mean you actually can be, and if people oppose your idiotic views it does not make them bigoted against you. They are opposing soemthing harmful you are promoting.

    Being gay doesn't exempt you from the bigotry stamp.
    Yeah again you fail to understand or refuse to.

    My saying I can see BOTH sides, does not mean I support either. First, I hate religion. Second, I don't hate gays. Third, I think marriage is an archaic and useless institution everyone should run from. I am sure that offended some, but oh well. So I have ZERO personal vesting in gay marriage or gay rights. I can be OBJECTIVE. You can not.
    There IS no objectivity on the topic of religious nuts trying to oppress people. Either you agree with them or find their views repulsive. Either you're for people minding their own business, or you're for others imposing their will on you.

    Take your pick
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  7. #142
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    I don't refuse to understand or fail to, which is what you label anyone who refuses to AGREE with you.

    Sorry, I don't fall over when pushed. I push back.



  8. #143
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Here is the deal. If you push Obama and the dems to repeal DOMA and DADT right now and they do, you will give Jindal/Palin the White House and all the dems who got seats will be voted out ASAP.
    Just like when the civil rights act was pushed through despite something like 71% opposition?

    Whatever.

    If that were to happen, the shift to the right would be quick and the right would move swiftly to enact laws barring everything gays want. The Supreme Court would be packed with fundies, consider how old some of the justices are. Those who voted in Dems in the last election could be swayed to vote for the rethugs again and you think you are pissed off now? Wait until the ultra cons get their hands ont he reins.
    They had their hands on the reins already. It will be a risk no matter WHEN it's tried. Nobody is willing to wait 50 fucking years for it, when there will be UNCOUNTED VICTIMS DURING THOSE 50 YEARS.

    So no, no sit down and wait. Real people are involved right now. Waiting another 50 years is an improbable proposition. How do you ask people to be victims for that long on the mere hope that it MIGHT change?

    Fuck that. AFFECT CHANGE and crush anybody in the way.

    You can't just run into the battlefield with no armor and no plan. You will be massacred and gain nothing.
    The plan offered so far is sit and wait. The french tried that witht heir Maginot line. We see how that worked.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  9. #144
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojiita View Post
    I disagree. Just how is society going through 'major upheaval where things are changing"...nothing like the Civil War, or the Sixties anywhere I look...

    Can you explain this to me...cause I am not seeing it.
    How can you not see that society is going through a massive upheaval right now? You have major companies going under, massive unemployment, potential restructuring of major parts of the government that will directly impact society as a whole. This isn't just a normal recession we're going through. When the dust finally settles there are going to be a lot of things that are different. And these changes aren't just impacting America, but it's on a global scale.

  10. #145
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    I don't refuse to understand or fail to, which is what you label anyone who refuses to AGREE with you.
    No, logically I make sense. You cannot be bigoted against bigotry and have it as a negative. It's a non starter. That's your argument and it's illogical.

    Sorry, I don't fall over when pushed. I push back.
    At this point, it's like the special olympics. I make sense. You don't. I can make a mathematical equation out of the precision of the argument.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  11. #146
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Also, Grimm is not trying to stop the rights of bigots to be bigots, he is just trying to stop them from imposing their will onto others, and restricting other's rights. He is not opposing their views, he is opposing more their imposing their views upon others, violating their rights. He does not give a shit what people think about gays really, as long as it is self-regarding and those people are not trying to deny gays civil rights.

    He is not against them, he could probably care less(er..or maybe he just hates them too..whatever). He is against their having the ability to use their beliefs to restrict, or impinge upon, the civil rights and freedoms of others.

    Grimm is not trying to 'take away' or 'restrict' the rights of Christians, or anything. It is about fairness and equality through actions they take that he is concerned with, and he has always said this.

    And I am the same way. I could care less what you think..what you DO with what you think, in ways that could take away my freedoms and rights, DOES concern me.
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  12. #147
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Bingo.

    They can think whatever the fuck they want, just leave gays alone and stop trying to impose their religious shit on them.

    If the nuts left gays alone and minded their own fucking business, there wouldn't be a problem.

    They don't. They KEEP ATTACKING. Then they whine when their victims fight back and win.

    ridiculous.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  13. #148
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Just like when the civil rights act was pushed through despite something like 71% opposition?

    Whatever.
    Your rage is blinding you. Again. You seem to forget, different issue, different field.

    They had their hands on the reins already. It will be a risk no matter WHEN it's tried. Nobody is willing to wait 50 fucking years for it, when there will be UNCOUNTED VICTIMS DURING THOSE 50 YEARS.

    So no, no sit down and wait. Real people are involved right now. Waiting another 50 years is an improbable proposition. How do you ask people to be victims for that long on the mere hope that it MIGHT change?

    Fuck that. AFFECT CHANGE and crush anybody in the way.
    It doesn't matter WHAT YOU WANT. Your arrogance means zilch. Push it now and watch it get shot down. It is this type of mentality which is holding you back. The arrogant push forward, angry and disorganized, completely refusing to anticipate their opponents next move.

    If Obama pushes this less than 6 months into his term, many of the moderates, and conservatives, who backed him, will turn tail and push the conservatives back into office in 2012. Let's see if they work to overturn DADT and DOMA. I would be willing to bet they would take steps to cement anti-gay law firmly into place.

    The plan offered so far is sit and wait. The french tried that witht heir Maginot line. We see how that worked.
    This is the other side of the pond, not a World War, and no country is attacking the other. This is internal. Forget apples and oranges, this is apples and SUVs.



  14. #149
    Elite Member Sojiita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    How can you not see that society is going through a massive upheaval right now? You have major companies going under, massive unemployment, potential restructuring of major parts of the government that will directly impact society as a whole. This isn't just a normal recession we're going through. When the dust finally settles there are going to be a lot of things that are different. And these changes aren't just impacting America, but it's on a global scale.
    Right. It ain't settled yet, in fact it is still rising.. And these are economic things you cite, not 'social' things. The economy was booming during the fifties and sixties..but look what happened socially. Economic distress does not always equal social upheaval in a positive way-often times it is accompanied by a return to conservative values. I might argue that it would be the 'post-economic upheaval time' when social change may be the greatest, or the potential may be the greatest. I still just do not see it that way right now.

    I get where you are going with this though, and I really hope I am wrong and you are right.
    Don't slap me, cause I'm not in the mood!

  15. #150
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    No, logically I make sense. You cannot be bigoted against bigotry and have it as a negative. It's a non starter. That's your argument and it's illogical.

    At this point, it's like the special olympics. I make sense. You don't. I can make a mathematical equation out of the precision of the argument.
    You think you do.

    Can it, Grim. When you resort to insults, it just proves you fight with emotions and your misguided arrogance is a heavy cloud affecting your vision. The Axis powers had a similar, we are always right, arrogant mentality in WW2. Obviously effective.

    If the gay rights movement follows your lead, they will slide backwards and not see any rights for the rest of the century.



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