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Thread: Fact sheet about the health care bill: how awful it is indeed

  1. #16
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    ooHHH DRAMA! talks between Pelosi and the anti-choice nuts have fallen apart, so no vote for him.. last minute switcheroo.

    but according to a top dem, an executive anti-choice order from Obama is still on the table
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  2. #17
    Elite Member Cali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    I think it's amusing that you bring up the question of Jane Hamsher's qualifications, and yet the author of the new york times article is some 23 year old kid still getting her degree.

    Farhana Hossain
    I'm not sure if that's actually her- on LinkedIn, there are at least 4 people with the same name.

    I think this is probably her, in which case she designs and lays out news pages. Which is consistent with her other work on the NYT. And her title is actually Part-time Graphics Editor. So if I'm reading that correctly, someone else wrote the text on the pages- she just put it together.
    http://www.poynterextra.org/pointsso...rhana/body.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    Also fun, Stupak is getting his abortion bullshit voted on and it will probably pass, and thus be inserted back into this shitty bill.

    But hey.. nevermind that it's a direct attack on roe v. wade... it may not be perfect but it's "good", right.
    Actually, I'm pretty sure that's not accurate either. Score another miss for Firedoglake!

    From Politico:
    No deal with Stupak

    Jonathan Allen:
    House leaders have decided not to give Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.) a vote on a strict ban on federal funding for abortion and will instead try to muster the 216 votes needed to send a health care overhaul to the president without his help, a Democratic aide confirmed.

    Stupak's spokeswoman told POLITICO that “discussions are continuing,” but the talks between anti-abortion Democrats and Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Stupak "have collapsed," according to another Michigan Democrat, Rep. Dale Kildee, an abortion foe who plans to vote for the bill.

    Stupak, the leader of a small band of Democratic anti-abortion holdouts, scuttled a highly anticipated press conference Saturday morning in which he was expected to lay out his demands for airtight language banning federal subsidies for the purchase of insurance plans that cover abortion in exchange for the group’s support of the bill.

    Democratic lawmakers and aides say they will get the votes they need even if they don’t win the support of Stupak and some of his allies, but reaching 216 is significantly more difficult without them.

    Rep. Dan Lipinski (D-Ill.), though, said Stupak's group is holding firm.

    He said that to support the legislation he needs an ironclad guarantee that Stupak's language will be resurrected and enforced — whether the vehicle is legislation or executive action.

    "There's still time and they still need votes," he said.

    Rep. Joseph Pitts (R-Pa.), a close friend and ally of Stupak, also told POLITICO that the pro-life Democrats are holding the line and that their votes will be needed to pass the bill.

    "Bart's always said this'll come down to Saturday night at 11 o'clock," Pitts said.
    No deal with Stupak - Ben Smith - POLITICO.com
    Also confirmed by the Washington Post:
    Pelosi rejects Stupak abortion solution


    By Lori Montgomery, Ben Pershing and Paul Kane
    House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) on Saturday rejected an offer to hold a separate vote on abortion provisions in the sweeping health-care legislation, setting the stage for the final talks with the last Democratic holdouts.

    Pelosi told reporters that she rejected the solution offered by Rep. Bart Stupak (Mich.), the leading antiabortion Democrat who proposed passing separate, strict language that would clarify that no federal funds in the proposed legislation could go toward abortion coverage.

    Asked if a vote was coming, Pelosi declared no extra votes would be held to appease antiabortion Democrats or liberals still hopeful for adding their favored causes. "Not on abortion, not on public option, not on single payer, not on anything," Pelosi said. She later added, "The bill is the bill."
    44 - Pelosi rejects Stupak abortion solution

  3. #18
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    oh and another golden nugget: Glenn Greenwald thinks Ezra Klein is a kool aid drinking hack.

    The Washington Post's Ezra Klein has an amazing post in which he trumpets what he calls the "Twilight of the Interest Groups" reflected by likely passage of the health care bill (h/t). Why are Interest Groups -- once so powerful in Washington -- now banished to their "twilight"? Because, says Ezra, "the Obama administration succeeded at neutralizing every single industry." If, by "neutralizing," Ezra means "bribing and accommodating them to such an extreme degree that they ended up affirmatively supporting a bill that lavishes them with massive benefits," then he's absolutely right. He himself notes what he calls the "remarkable level of industry consensus" in support of the bill:

    Pharma supports the bill. Insurers are incoherent on it, but there's not a ferocious and united campaign to kill the proposal. The American Medical Association has endorsed the Senate bill. The hospitals have endorsed the bill. Labor has endorsed the bill. The business community is split, with larger employers holding their fire.


    Indeed, PhRMA is so in favor of this bill that, over the last week, they've spent $6 million on an ad campaign aimed at undecided House Democrats to try to pressure them to vote for the bill. And while the most hackish Obama loyalists (echoing the administration) have been claiming that the health insurance industry is vehemently opposed to and working to defeat this bill, Ezra commendably acknowledges the reality that they have done little in that regard (Marcia Angell -- Professor at Harvard Medical School and the former editor of The New England Journal of Medicine -- said a few weeks ago of the health insurance industry: "What they're fighting for is the individual mandate. And if they get that mandate [which the final bill contains], if everyone does have to buy their commercial products, then they're going to be extremely happy with it").

    Now, if someone wants to argue (as Kevin Drum has) that sleazily bribing these industry interests with secret deals was a necessary evil -- a shrewd, pragmatic way to get a health care bill passed, without which it could not have happened -- that's one thing. I think that's debatable -- after all, the central promise of the Obama campaign was that it would circumvent those factions by appealing directly to the armies of citizen-supporters they had lined up -- but at least that's an honest, rational argument. Bribing these industries was ugly and sleazy but necessary.

    But to pretend that this bill represents the "Twilight of the Interest Groups," that special interests have been "neutralized," that this bill is some sort of great victory over the health insurance and drug lobbies, is just hagiography and propaganda. Being able to force the Government to bribe and accommodate you is not a reflection of your powerlessness; quite the opposite. Everyone would love to be forced into a "twilight" like that. It's one thing for the Obama administration and the DNC to issue self-serving claims like this (we've stood up to the insurance and drug companies!), but those who hold themselves out as independent commentators ought to keep their feet on their ground.

    As for the related Obama defense that the way this bill was crafted fulfilled his campaign promises because he said he would include these industries "at the table": please. It's true that Obama did say that, and that this clearly meant he intended to try to accommodate some of their concerns so that they didn't wage jihad against his bill. That's fair enough. But it's also true that he repeatedly railed against the Washington practice of crafting bills by negotiating in secret with lobbyists and industry interests, and his whole I'll-put-these-negotations-on-C-SPAN promise was specifically designed, he said, to prevent a health care bill from being negotiated based on secret deals with the health care and pharmaceutical industries.

    But that's exactly how he ended up negotiating this bill -- using the exact secret processes that he railed against and which he swore he would banish. It was only because The Huffington Post's Ryan Grim uncovered the secret memo-deal the White House had entered into with PhRMA -- a deal they had publicly denied until then and until PhRMA demanded they publicly affirm it -- did we know that the administration had agreed to oppose drug re-importation and bulk price negotiations, measures Obama (and the Democrats generally) repeatedly promised to enact. Indeed, when it came time to vote on drug re-importation, the administration concocted false "safety concerns" about re-importation in order to whip against Byron Dorgan's re-importation amendment, rather than admit that they really opposed it because they secretly promised they would to PhRMA, which hates drug re-importation because it lowers prices. And it was only two days ago that we finally had confirmed what (at least to me) was obvious all along: namely, the White House had agreed in secret with health care industry representatives that there would be no public option in a final bill, even as the President publicly feigned support for it and pretended to be fighting for it.

    In other words, this bill was negotiated using the standard, secret, sleazy Beltway lobbyist/industry practices that candidate Obama frequently condemned and vowed to defeat. And these industries extracted such huge benefits as a result of these secret deals -- a bill shaped to their liking and profit objectives -- that they are essentially in favor of it.

    Again, none of this is proof that the health care bill is a bad idea -- it's possible that a bill which pleases these industries also produces, on balance, more good than harm (by expanding coverage and restricting some industry abuses). But being in favor of the bill is not a justification for making misleading claims to try to glorify what it achieves or, worse, claiming that it represents a change in the way Washington works and a fulfillment of Obama's campaign pledges. The way this bill has been shaped is the ultimate expression -- and bolstering -- of how Washington has long worked. One can find reasonable excuses for why it had to be done that way, but one cannot reasonably deny that it was. And one can truthfully say many things about the political power of industry interests in Washington after this is all done; that they were "neutralized" and are in their "twilight" is most assuredly not among them.

    Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com
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  4. #19
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cali View Post
    I'm not sure if that's actually her- on LinkedIn, there are at least 4 people with the same name.

    I think this is probably her, in which case she designs and lays out news pages. Which is consistent with her other work on the NYT. And her title is actually Part-time Graphics Editor. So if I'm reading that correctly, someone else wrote the text on the pages- she just put it together.
    http://www.poynterextra.org/pointsso...rhana/body.htm


    Actually, I'm pretty sure that's not accurate either. Score another miss for Firedoglake!

    From Politico:
    Also confirmed by the Washington Post:
    44 - Pelosi rejects Stupak abortion solution
    Pretty sure she slapped the whole thing together, given that the sources are listed by her name, ergo she is the author of the piece.


    also I guess you missed the part right after where the talks fell apart like an hour ago, which i posted about. the FDL article was from yesterday. The most current one is this, so no.. no miss.

    According to a source involved in the health care negotiations in Congress, Henry Waxman is telling Democratic caucus members that Bart Stupak’s deal with Nancy Pelosi is dead. Stupak had called a press conference to announce the deal at 11am this morning, but has now canceled it.

    The deal fell apart after news of the deal, and a copy of the amendment, was published on FDL last night.

    FDL Action PAC has been running ads and robocalls in the districts of pro-choice members of Congress all week, targeted at likely voters who are pro-choice, urging them to contact their representatives and tell them to oppose any restriction on women’s reproductive rights in the health care bill.

    The publication of the amendment triggered a flurry of activity within the pro-choice community, who began hammering their own leadership, who in turn put pressure on members of the pro-choice caucus as well as Pelosi herself. Although NARAL’s Nancy Keenan had not planned to oppose the measure, outrage from within her own ranks caused her to speak out.

    According to the source (and with no small amount of irony), “Nancy Pelosi finally grew balls.”

    Pelosi had wanted the pro-choice caucus to accept a deal whereby after the House voted to pass the health care bill with the Senate’s Nelson language, Stupak would get a stand-alone vote that could pass with the help of anti-choice Republicans.

    Members of the pro-choice caucus felt that Nancy had “sold us out,” according to one member. “She is just going along with whatever the boys in the White House tell her to do.”

    As Dave Dayen notes in his whip count, even if Pelosi gets every other uncommitted vote, she still needs to crack the Stupak block to get to 216.

    Of course, the White House is only being hung out to dry with their own propaganda. The Nelson language in the Senate bill is only marginally different from the Stupak language, and would probably achieve the same effect (removing abortion coverage from all health insurance policies) in about the same time. But in an effort to pretend that they’d achieved some amazing pro-choice victory with the Nelson language, they demonized Stupak. That appears to have emboldened him.

    TNR’s Jon Cohen, who has been very tied in to the White House throughout the debate, tweets that the White House is discussing an executive order to address the situation:

    Senior Dem source: Exec order on abortion rights still on the table, under discussion #hcr #healthreform

    Of course, as I’ve said before, abortion would not be an issue in the “Plan B” alternative that the White House was contemplating three weeks ago, which would evidently expand existing programs — Medicaid and SCHIP. It would cover half the people at a quarter of the price, but it would not include the politically toxic mandate that threatens to trigger nationwide opposition in the form of 2010 ballot amendments. The only reason the controversy exists is because the White House wanted to create a whole new level of bureaucracy to facilitate money going to private insurance companies, rather than work within existing government programs that were already covered under the Hyde amendment.

    If Cohen’s reporting is correct, the White House would rather circumvent Congress to appease Stupak than opt for their own “plan B” that protects women’s reproductive rights.

    Stupak Deal is Dead, Obama Executive Order on Abortion “On the Table” | FDL Action
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  5. #20
    Friend of Gossip Rocks! buttmunch's Avatar
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    Grimm, I agree that the bill is far from perfect but, as I've said many times, look at the situation: it's been more than 100 years that efforts to introduce ANY kind of health care bill have been stymied. I'm happy that it's even on the table and that anything will be put in place. You're Canadian and for you, like me-who lives in a country where this is a given-it's hard to understand the difficulties of starting something like this. But I think they've given it their best shot, considering the enormous amount of ignorant opposition and I think it's the door opening to a better health care system. I can't ask for more. I grew up in the States. I know how people are about this shit. I give Obama massive credit for even taking on this loaded issues. He has massive balls and anyone who doesn't see that is blind, blind, blind.
    'Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.' Ben Franklin

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
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  6. #21
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    No, they haven't given it their best shot. Despite all the lies, all the backroom deals, all the concessions, all the pounding of liberals and masturbating of neocons, and you're STILL holding onto that utterly false premise. No matter that they dumped everything that could have saved a shit ton of money AND covered EVERYBODY from the outset, the very beginning, with secret deals with the industry, you're still holding onto that "but they tried their bestest" nonsense.

    Insane.
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  7. #22
    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    Typical. Anything that someone disagrees with is automatically 'bullshit' from 'bullshit sources' just like any poll that doesn't support your beliefs is suspect but the ones that support your ideals are right on target. Same old same old.

    This isn't directed at any poster here at all, just a generic 'you'.
    Only the good die young.........................
    bitches like me live forever!!!!!!!!!!!!

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