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Thread: Diplomat’s wife Anne Sacoolas kill British teen & flees to US to avoid charges.

  1. #16
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    To be fair Mo most of Europe drives on the same side as the US - Britain, Ireland we don’t and - useless piece of info for the day - it’s due to meeting someone on the road with your sword arm where as Europe meets with its shield arm.... something to do with the Roman Empire I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    lol i just had a fun time googling which countries have unpaid fines in the US, including one headline about 'deadbeat diplomats' in new york.
    for the record, back when i had immunity, i never abused it. it helps that i never had a car but i also never killed anyone

    https://gothamist.com/news/map-shows...tickets-in-nyc
    2002 was also the year that then-Mayor Bloomberg joined forces with the State Department to crack down on delinquent diplomats, asking the state to confiscate the plates of anyone who failed to pay tickets within 100 days. It worked: the numbers continued to drop to an all-time low in 2007, but have been on the up in recent years.”

    So they did do something about it.....




    As for this woman, it wasn’t a couple of seconds unless she was travelling at speed
    “She travelled on 350 to 400 yards on the wrong side of the road.”


    Dont bases have signs telling you what side of the road to drive on? I know that we have them as Dover (ferry crossings to Europe) so drivers don’t get confused.

  2. #17
    Elite Member Kittylady's Avatar
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    Bloke goes to the US at least once a year and has drove rental cars there and in many other countries across the world. He has yet to have had an accident while driving abroad in his thirty plus years of international business travel.
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  3. #18
    Elite Member lindsaywhit's Avatar
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    I've driven around England and Scotland on trips with the kids, and never had an issue, but then, I did have the experience in Hong Kong, so it came pretty naturally. If I was setting out today, I'd probably opt for the train... ehem, if it's good enough for the Queen, lol. Just seems a very relaxing way to go, but then I wouldn't have youngish children along, who I preferred to have strapped into one place while traveling.
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  4. #19
    Elite Member greysfang's Avatar
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    I would never attempt to drive in a country that uses the other side of the road, but the Viking does so I’m good.
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  5. #20
    Elite Member SHELLEE's Avatar
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    I had no problem driving on the other side of the road when I was abroad but when I came back I had a start when my fil left the airport and I saw all of the traffic and I thought we were on the wrong side. That was it though, I got right back into driving in the US.
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  6. #21
    Elite Member dolem's Avatar
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    I lived in Ireland for a year and drove just fine on the other side of the road. I found it helpful to think of it in these terms: in the US the driver is on the inside of the road and the right side. In the UK/Ireland the driver is STILL on the inside of the road but on the left side. So, as long as you're on the inside you're fine. Now, shifting with my left hand took a little time to get used to but I managed just fine.
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  7. #22
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    Someone in the Trump thread posted that it was an accident - we now have vehicular manslaughter- here are some more details on it from2017 when the law was tightened up (mainly due to people driving & killing others while on their phones):-


    Drivers who kill will now face life sentence


    Government to toughen sentences after consultation
    Michael Savage, and Dulcie Lee
    Sun 15 Oct 2017 00.05 BST



    1 year old



    Dangerous drivers who cause death while using their mobile phones or speeding will face life in prison, ministers have confirmed. The decision to go ahead with a major extension of sentences comes after a campaign by families and a cross-party group of MPs.
    Drivers who kill while under the influence of drink or drugs will also face a life sentence. And there will be a new offence of causing serious injury through careless driving, as part of renewed efforts to improve road safety.
    The new measures mean such drivers could face the same length of sentence as those convicted of manslaughter, with maximum penalties raised from 14 years to life.


    Last year 157 people were sentenced for causing death by dangerous driving, with a further 32 convicted of causing death by careless driving while under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

    Dominic Raab, the justice minister, said: “We’ve taken a long hard look at driving sentences, and we received 9,000 submissions to our consultation. Based on the seriousness of the worst cases, the anguish of the victims’ families, and maximum penalties for other serious offences such as manslaughter, we intend to introduce life sentences of imprisonment for those who wreck lives by driving dangerously, drunk or high on drugs. We will introduce a new offence of causing serious injury by careless driving, punishable by imprisonment, to fill a gap in the law andreflect the seriousness of some of the injuries suffered by victims in this category of case.”In response to a government consultation on dangerous driving, 70% of responses backed extending the maximum penalty for the offence to life imprisonment.

    https://amp.theguardian.com/law/2017...-life-sentence
    Tory MP Heidi Allen has been campaigning for life sentences for death by dangerous driving. The South Cambridgeshire MP has been supporting the family of a 21-year-old who was killed after being hit by a car on a night out. The killer was sentenced to four years, but was released after two. Labour’s Judith Cummins also pressed the government on the issue in July.

  8. #23
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    She isn’t coming back but appears to have been granted immunity after the accident!

    Mrs Sacoolas had only been in the country three weeks and it is thought she forgot to drive on the left.
    She was granted diplomatic immunity and fled the UK before she could be quizzed over causing death by dangerous driving.
    It was reported Mrs Sacoolas' husband Jonathan is not on the official diplomatic list and was protected under bilateral US-UK agreements covering spy bases.
    The 43-year-old was working “in intelligence” at the base, which is used by the US as a spy station called the Joint Intelligence Analysis Center.”





  9. #24
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    Jonathan Sacoolas Is Not, and Has Never Been, a Diplomat

    craig
    2 days ago
    UPDATE: Since I published this article the mainstream media, including at least Sky News and the Guardian, have started to report that Sacoolas does not have diplomatic immunity. This is a massive reversal in the MSM line, though to date none have published that he works for NSA or explained the NSA/GCHQ relationship. The MSM are all quoting the lawyer Mark Stephens, rather than this blog, as the source of the information. I would gently note that I can so far find no evidence of Stephens pointing out Sacoolas is not on the Diplomatic List until some hours after I broke the story, and that when he gave radio interviews yesterday Stephens was unaware of the fact.
    Ultimately however it does not matter that I am not credited; what matters is my lead has in practice been followed and there is now a much stronger point of pressure available to get justice for Harry Dunn.
    END OF UPDATE


    There is no Jonathan Sacoolas on the official Diplomatic list.

    Neither Sacoolas nor his wife has any right to claim diplomatic immunity under the Vienna Convention.
    Article 31 of the Vienna Convention states that:
    A diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving state
    Article 37 extends this privilege to family members living in his household. A “diplomatic agent” is defined in article 2(d).
    The “members of the diplomatic staff” are the members of the staff of the mission having diplomatic rank;

    Jonathan Sacoolas does not hold, and has never held, a diplomatic rank. He has never been a member of staff of a diplomatic mission. (All those with diplomatic rank appear in the diplomatic list, see above link. That list also includes some attaches who do not have diplomatic rank (depending on the type of attache), but there is nobody with diplomatic rank not in the list).

    Jonathan Sacoolas does not have, and has never had, any entitlement to diplomatic immunity in international law.
    Sacoolas works as an NSA technical officer at the communications interceptions post at “RAF Croughton”. His role is support to the interception of communications from British citizens. As I explained in Murder in Samarkand, the NSA and GCHQ share all intelligence reports, but each faces legal constraints on mass spying on its own citizens.

    So the NSA has staff here fronting the spying on British citizens, while GCHQ has staff in the US fronting the spying on US citizens, and the polite fiction is that the results are transmitted back over the Atlantic to the US or UK respectively, before being “shared” with the partner intelligence agency.

    None of which has anything to do with diplomacy, and Sacoolas must be the subject of a DSMA notice given that all mainstream media are referring to him constantly as a “diplomat”, when they all know that is not true. The irony is of course that if Sacoolas actually was a real diplomat, the US would very probably have waived the diplomatic immunity of his wife, as the issues around his presence and function would be much less sensitive.

    The UK has no Vienna Convention obligation to acknowledge the “immunity” of Sacoolas’ wife, contrary to all reporting to date. What does apparently exist between the UK and US is a secret, bilateral agreement to treat GCHQ and NSA staff as if they had diplomatic immunity. That is not at all the same thing as Vienna Convention protection under international law. I cannot conceive the grief of Harry Dunn’s parents, but I do hope that they are not deceived by the pretence at intervention in this case by Johnson and Raab.

    I am not at all convinced, as a matter of law, that the government has the power to grant, by bilateral treaty or otherwise, immunity from criminal prosecution to foreign nationals, plainly outside the provisions of the Vienna Convention. This should be tested by the courts.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...-diplomat/amp/

  10. #25
    Elite Member faithanne's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but driving for 400 metres on the wrong side of the road is not an "accident", it's bad driving.
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  11. #26
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    The UK has no Vienna Convention obligation to acknowledge the “immunity” of Sacoolas’ wife, contrary to all reporting to date. What does apparently exist between the UK and US is a secret, bilateral agreement to treat GCHQ and NSA staff as if they had diplomatic immunity. That is not at all the same thing as Vienna Convention protection under international law.
    interesting...
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  12. #27
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    US crash suspect does not have diplomatic immunity, Foreign Office says

    Anne Sacoolas, the wife of a US diplomat, returned to the States after she was involved in a crash that killed a teenager.


    By Tom Gillespie, News reporter @TomGillespie1
    Sunday 13 October 2019 09:07, UK


    The US diplomat's wife involved in a crash which killed teenager Harry Dunn does not have diplomatic immunity, the Foreign Office has said.
    Harry's parents, Charlotte Charles and Tim Dunn, were informed of the development in a letter from the Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab.
    It reads: "The question remains when such immunity comes to an end, regardless of any waiver.
    "We have looked at this very carefully, as I wanted to be confident in the position before conveying it to you.
    "The UK government's position is that immunity, and therefore any question of waiver, is no longer relevant in Mrs Sacoolas' case, because she has returned home.



    The US have now informed us that they too consider that immunity is no longer pertinent.
    "In these circumstances, Harry's case is now a matter for Northants police and the CPS to take forward.
    "That of course is done entirely independently, and it would not be right for me to comment any further."
    Image:The foreign secretary says diplomatic immunity is no longer relevant in Anne Sacoolas' case
    Tim Dunn said Mr Raab's letter was "excellent news".
    He told Sky News: "As we've said all along, we believed she didn't have immunity and we always believed it was just incorrect. This means so much to us."
    Mark Stephens, the lawyer representing the Dunns, told Sky News that Anne Sacoolas "was very ill-advised" to have left the UK and said that it had caused the family "untold additional grief and hurt".


    Image:Harry Dunn was 19 when he was killed in a crash near a US spy base in Northamptonshire
    It comes after Mrs Sacoolas said she wanted to meet Harry's parents to "express her deepest sympathies and apologies".
    Harry, 19, died when his motorbike collided with a car outside an RAF base in Northamptonshire in August.
    Mrs Sacoolas, 43, was involved in the crash but returned to the US after being granted diplomatic immunity.


    Mrs Sacoolas' lawyer Amy Jeffress said: "Anne is devastated by this tragic accident. No loss compares to the death of a child and Anne extends her deepest sympathy to Harry Dunn's family.
    "The media reporting has been inaccurate in many respects. To begin with, Anne fully co-operated with the police and the investigation.
    "She spoke with authorities at the scene of the accident and met with the Northampton police at her home the following day. She will continue to co-operate with the investigation.
    "Anne would like to meet with Mr Dunn's parents so that she can express her deepest sympathies and apologies for this tragic accident.
    "We have been in contact with the family's attorneys and look forward to hearing from them."

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/diplomats-wife-devastated-and-wants-to-meet-harry-dunns-parents-11833917



    Harry Dunn: Mum tells US diplomat's wife Anne Sacoolas 'sorry doesn't cut it'

    Anne Sacoolas, the wife of a US diplomat, wants to meet Harry Dunn's parents to offer an apology over the crash that killed him.


    Sunday 13 October 2019 15:14, UK



    The mother of Harry Dunn has told Sky News "sorry doesn't cut it" ahead of a potential meeting with the woman involved in the crash that killed him.
    Parents Charlotte Charles and Tim Dunn are travelling to the US after the Foreign Office said that Anne Sacoolas, the wife of an American diplomat, no longer has diplomatic immunity because she has returned home.
    Mrs Sacoolas has said she wants to meet to "express her deepest sympathies and apologies" after the fatal accident outside an RAF base in Northamptonshire in August, but Ms Charles said "that's not really quite enough".
    Image:Harry Dunn died after a road accident in August
    Image:The family of Harry Dunn are travelling to America
    Ahead of her departure from the UK, Ms Charles told Sky's Lisa Dowd: "My opinion on Anne Sacoolas now wanting to come forward and say sorry - to be perfectly honest, yes it's the start of some closure for our family.

    "Having said that, as it's nearly seven weeks now since we lost our boy, sorry just doesn't cut it.


    That's not really quite enough. But I'm still really open to meeting her, as are the rest of us. I can't promise what I would or wouldn't say, but I certainly wouldn't be aggressive."
    Mr Dunn added: "So after thinking about the letter, obviously we were right from the start. So here we are, about to get on the plane at Heathrow to go to America.
    "Still apprehensive because, you know, this thing has been up and down, up and down.
    "Hopefully we'll get the answers we are seeking."
    Image:Harry Dunn was on a green motorbike when he was involved in the accident
    Harry, 19, died when his motorbike collided with a car outside RAF Croughton on 27 August.
    Mrs Sacoolas, 43, was involved in the crash but returned to the US after being granted diplomatic immunity, prompting the grieving family to make a public appeal for her to return.

    https://news.sky.com/story/amp/harry...-wife-11834129


  13. #28
    Elite Member faithanne's Avatar
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    Why are they going to the US? They should be demanding that she flies back to the UK if she's so desperate to meet them face to face to apologise.
    "You're going to die tomorrow, Lord Bolton. Sleep well."



  14. #29
    Elite Member Novice's Avatar
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    Given that she was given a sham-diplomatic immunity & flown out of the UK on a special US airplane (presumably out of the RAF base that she was exiting when she killed the kid); I think that the probability of her returning to the UK is less than zero.
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  15. #30
    Elite Member Kittylady's Avatar
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    I heard on the radio this morninythat the Dunn family were asked to attend a meeting at the White House last night as 'a matter of urgency'. When they got there they found that Trumpy not only wasn't going to have Sacoolas return to the UK to face charges but that he had her in a side room waiting for them.

    What an unfeeling prick.
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