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Thread: Dems cave utterly on healthcare: no public option is on the table, no reform, zero.

  1. #31
    Gold Member mamaste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    Thanks, Mamaste. There were other things I wanted to add, but it was already turning into War & Peace.
    I know how it is. IRL, I have a tendency to be, um, verbose. You wouldn't believe some of the novles I've written Congress and the White House.

    Here's a good site to help find reps, mobilize, protest, etc: Health Care for America NOW! Pass it on to your relatives, friends, neighbors, other forums. We cannot let this opportunity slip through our fingers. It may not be the best reform, but it is a step in the right direction.

  2. #32
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mamaste View Post
    I know how it is. IRL, I have a tendency to be, um, verbose. You wouldn't believe some of the novles I've written Congress and the White House.

    Here's a good site to help find reps, mobilize, protest, etc: Health Care for America NOW! Pass it on to your relatives, friends, neighbors, other forums. We cannot let this opportunity slip through our fingers. It may not be the best reform, but it is a step in the right direction.
    Thanks for the info. Appreciate it.

  3. #33
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingcap72 View Post
    Agreed. People need to get off their asses and make their voices heard. I sent my e-mail off to the White House, not that I think it'll make a difference. But, hey, who knows?
    Yeah, I just saw a tweet by Melissa Harris-Lacewell that said:
    harrislacewellThink writing doesn't matter?Taeku Lee shows that letters to WH helped pass 1965 Voting Rights Act.Taeku Lee: Mobilizing Public Opinion
    Congress won't be back until September. Perhaps things will swing in the media more to the Dems favor rather than concentrating on nutjobs brining guns to the President's town halls?

    I emailed the White House this morning. Going to call the comment line tomorrow, just so I can double up on my comments. (Also, the comment line is only open 8 to 5 so I couldn't call today.)

    Also, you can send a thank you to those representatives who openly support the public option here: DemocracyForAmerica.com » Thank Our Healthcare Heroes

  4. #34
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    1965 isn't now, though.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  5. #35
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    That's not the point, Grimm. You know it.

  6. #36
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    No, from a conceptual standpoint.. what was possible in 1965 probably isn't now given the changes in society and the rather parasitic nature of the corporations and how much power they hold.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  7. #37
    Elite Member Fluffy's Avatar
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    Oh, you just want to cling to your Failbama meme.

    Mike Lux

    Author, The Progressive Revolution: How the Best in America Came to Be
    Posted: August 17, 2009 05:00 PM

    The News of Its Death Is Greatly Exaggerated

    Kent Conrad has repeatedly said there are not enough votes in the Senate for a public option, and now says he won't vote for one. HHS Secretary Sebelius says the public insurance option is not essential. These statements add to a steadily growing conventional wisdom that the public option is now dead.

    Not so fast. This fight hasn't even come close to being played out yet.

    Conrad is accurate that there are not currently 60 votes in the Senate for a public option. But what conventional wisdom ignores is that there are 64 House members who are unequivocally on record as saying they will not vote for a health reform bill that has no public option, way more than enough to take that possibility off the table. So there are two possibilities right now:
    • If both sides of this equation hold tight, no bill passes at all
    • Something happens to change the dynamics
    The conventional wisdom says that while it is entirely possible that the first scenario happens, that if the second scenario happens it will be because House progressives fold. There seem to be no other possibilities to all the expert prognosticators.

    Now, I will admit that progressives have been known to fold before, as Chris Bowers wrote today. But let me suggest that there are other possibilities here, scenarios that are actually within the realm of the possible. If progressives in the House hold their ground, if they hang tough on the public option, what happens next will go something like this:

    1.
    The House will find the votes to pass a comprehensive bill with a public option soon after they get back from August recess. That will be reasonably easy, because Pelosi will be able to peel off a reasonable number of Blue Dogs, many of whom have said they would support a public option, to vote for the bill.

    2.
    The Senate will find the votes to pass a convoluted, tortured, unworkable bill, not only with no public option but so messed up and compromised to be unworkable anyway. This is less certain than number one, but Democrats will probably find a way to pass something.

    3.
    The conference committee will sit for several weeks as Senators like Conrad say we will never pass a public option, House progressives says we will never pass something without a public option, and the White House, Pelosi, Reid, and conference committee members work out details to try to get something passed.

    At that point, there are a few possibilities. One is that Democratic leaders just give up and declare health care reform dead. That seems unlikely to me, given the high stakes. Another possibility is that House progressives just fold up. That is more likely given recent history, but given their clear promises and the strong pressure on them not to, they might just hold this time. So let's assume for the moment that they do hold strong. Here are a couple of possibilities for getting a bill passed:

    A.
    The first is that conservative Senators are given a fig leaf compromise on the public option, so that they can say to people they forced a compromise, and then are brought over with all kinds of other incentives that make them more comfortable with the bigger bill.

    B.
    The second is that the conference committee simply breaks the bill in half, one half being the less controversial part that everyone agrees upon, the other being the public option and the financing, both of which can go through the reconciliation process. Then Obama and Reid muscle the 50 votes they need for support.

    None of this is easy, and none of it is pretty, but having been through a ton of these kinds of issue fights, both from inside the Clinton White House and from the outside, I can tell you that all of this is doable. These kinds of rhetorical logjams happen all the time, where it looks like the House and the Senate are both unalterably dug in, and then magically deals get done. On important bills, effective Presidents and Congressional leaders find some tough-to-thread-the-needle sweet spot, or they use some uncomfortable or inelegant legislative tool, and things that matter can get done. The media and establishment conventional wisdom, which always tends toward the dire and toward the conservative scenarios, is sometimes proven wrong. So ye of little faith, do not give up hope. The worst thing sometimes happens, but not always. Politicians sometimes sell people out, but not always. Keep fighting for the public option.

    If you're looking for inspiration, take a page out of Gov. Dean's book. I co-moderated this part wonky, part political, part fiery panel (along with the wonderful Texas AFT union organizer Tanya Tarr) with Gov. Dean, and I'm sharing it with you because like me, he still believes hope for a public option is still alive and worth fighting for.
    Mike Lux: The News of Its Death Is Greatly Exaggerated

  8. #38
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Grim, whether it's 1965 or 2009 the one thing politicians hate is pressure from the voters. One of the reasons why the blue dogs are resisting the public option, outside of the cash from the insurance companies, is due to the e-mails, letters and calls from their conservative constituents.

    Politicians count on the voters to only get involved at election time, but not to pressure them to do the jobs they were elected to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Yeah, I just saw a tweet by Melissa Harris-Lacewell that said: Congress won't be back until September. Perhaps things will swing in the media more to the Dems favor rather than concentrating on nutjobs brining guns to the President's town halls?

    I emailed the White House this morning. Going to call the comment line tomorrow, just so I can double up on my comments. (Also, the comment line is only open 8 to 5 so I couldn't call today.)

    Also, you can send a thank you to those representatives who openly support the public option here: DemocracyForAmerica.com » Thank Our Healthcare Heroes
    Thanks. I'll get on that.

  9. #39
    Gold Member mamaste's Avatar
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    Grimm, you don't have to live with this system, we do. It does none of us any good to simply take the crap that's handed to us.

  10. #40
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Oh, you just want to cling to your Failbama meme.
    I don't have to, he's doing a good enough job promoting it as is.

    Gimme a break with this shit too.. i was all rooting for him till he busted out the weak shit on gay issues.. i was with the guy when he signed the stem cell stuff, and tried to close GITMO... and after that, he hasn't done much that's good.

    It's not a fucking meme, it's reality. The progressives have already clued in that he's basically gone corporate despite the pretty words and isn't interested in actually PUSHING the agenda people voted him to push. He sits back until it's ready to fail, and then rushes in trying to salvage it. They don't stay on message, they actually tell progressives to sit down and shut up because they want to see him enact the platform he ran on, and they don't fight back.

    I'm not saying this in a fucking vacuum, TONS of people are pissed, enough that his numbers are slipping quite quickly.

    Let me recap:

    Appoints the very people responsible for the economic meltdown to helm the stimulus and reform, and the banks are winning that.

    Appoints some bipartisan bullshit group headed by blue dogs and rethugs to reform health care, people that have been bought by the very industry they're supposed to reform

    Has fucked over the gays, despite protestations not to

    Has told progressives who are trying to get him to enact the platform he ran on to shut up and sit down

    Has actually validated the crazies in the town hall meetings and legtimitized their retarded rantings

    Has dumped the public option off the table for health reform in order to try a "bipartisan" approach featuring industry supported co-opt programs, which is basically a reach around for the HMO's

    it just goes on and on

    I mean.. wtf more does he need to do. Really.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  11. #41
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mamaste View Post
    Grimm, you don't have to live with this system, we do. It does none of us any good to simply take the crap that's handed to us.
    who the fuck said you had to? Wtf?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  12. #42
    A*O
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    I'm afraid the perception here is Oz is that Obama is proving to be a huge disappointment and offers more style than substance. I know all politicians lie and make empty promises so this hasn't come as a huge shock but it's still very disappointing that he doesn't appear to have the balls to stand firm to the principles he so eloquently embraced on the election trail. But again, that's nothing new either. I also suspect that his lack of experience in the real backstabbing, backroom deals world of US politics is beginning to show. It's just so bloody disappointing. Edit: Too many "disappointings" but that's the word.
    If all the women in this place were laid end to end, I wouldn’t be surprised - Dorothy Parker

  13. #43
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    A*O, the entire continent of australia is now a meme. Better start telling people.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  14. #44
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A*O View Post
    I'm afraid the perception here is Oz is that Obama is proving to be a huge disappointment and offers more style than substance. I know all politicians lie and make empty promises so this hasn't come as a huge shock but it's still very disappointing that he doesn't appear to have the balls to stand firm to the principles he so eloquently embraced on the election trail. But again, that's nothing new either. I also suspect that his lack of experience in the real backstabbing, backroom deals world of US politics is beginning to show. It's just so bloody disappointing. Edit: Too many "disappointings" but that's the word.
    Those parts in bold are one of the things I've been wondering about. By trying to appease the GOP, when he doesn't need to, Obama's sending the impression that he's weak, both home and abroad. And that's not a good thing, especially with your enemies.

  15. #45
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    King, i don't think he's sending a message. I think he IS weak. This is just broadcasting how he is.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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