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Thread: Canadian university to Ann Coulter: Watch your mouth, bitch.

  1. #16
    Elite Member cmmdee's Avatar
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    First, my apologies to Canada for having him in your country at all.
    Second, if he goes off, have him arrested

  2. #17
    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    Oh please. Why are people so fucking afraid of other peoples' ideas? If people don't want to hear her mouth, don't show up. How fucking hard is that? It's so weak to use all this hate speech rhetoric as a shield against being offended. Nobody ever died from being offended. I know a lot in this crowd won't agree with me, but I think hate speech legislation is for wusses, and wanting people arrested for having unpopular ideas is for fascists whether they be right wingers who want to silence athiests or left wingers who hate Ann Coulter.
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    Elite Member witchcurlgirl's Avatar
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    Default The Creepy Tyranny Of Canada's Hate Speech Laws

    I've written many times before about the evils of "hate speech" laws that are prevalent in Canada and Europe -- people being fined, prosecuted and hauled before official tribunals for expressing political opinions which the State has prohibited and criminalized. I won't rehash those arguments here, but I do want to note a particularly creepy illustration of how these laws manifest. The far-right hatemonger Ann Coulter was invited by a campus conservative group to speak at the University of Ottawa, and the Vice Provost of that college sent Coulter a letter warning her that she may be subject to criminal prosecution if the views she expresses fall into the realm of prohibited viewpoints:

    Dear Ms. Coulter,
    I understand that you have been invited by University of Ottawa Campus Conservatives to speak at the University of Ottawa this coming Tuesday. . . .


    I would, however, like to inform you, or perhaps remind you, that our domestic laws, both provincial and federal, delineate freedom of expression (or "free speech") in a manner that is somewhat different than the approach taken in the United States. I therefore encourage you to educate yourself, if need be, as to what is acceptable in Canada and to do so before your planned visit here.


    You will realize that Canadian law puts reasonable limits on the freedom of expression. For example, promoting hatred against any identifiable group would not only be considered inappropriate, but could in fact lead to criminal charges. Outside of the criminal realm, Canadian defamation laws also limit freedom of expression and may differ somewhat from those to which you are accustomed. I therefore ask you, while you are a guest on our campus, to weigh your words with respect and civility in mind. . . .


    Hopefully, you will understand and agree that what may, at first glance, seem like unnecessary restrictions to freedom of expression do, in fact, lead not only to a more civilized discussion, but to a more meaningful, reasoned and intelligent one as well.


    I hope you will enjoy your stay in our beautiful country, city and campus.


    Sincerely,
    Francois Houle,
    Vice-President Academic and Provost, University of Ottawa
    Personally, I think threatening someone with criminal prosecution for the political views they might express is quite "hateful." So, too, is anointing oneself the arbiter of what is and is not sufficiently "civilized discussion" to the point of using the force of criminal law to enforce it. If I were administering Canada's intrinsically subjective "hate speech" laws (and I never would), I'd consider prosecuting Provost Houle for this letter. The hubris required to believe that you can declare certain views so objectively hateful that they should be criminalized is astronomical; in so many eras, views that were most scorned by majorities ended up emerging as truth.

    For as long as I'll live, I'll never understand how people want to vest in the Government the power to criminalize particular viewpoints it dislikes, will never understand the view that it's better to try to suppress adverse beliefs than to air them, and will especially never understand people's failure to realize that endorsing this power will, one day, very likely result in their own views being criminalized when their political enemies (rather than allies) are empowered. Who would ever want to empower officious technocrats to issue warnings along the lines of: be forewarned: if you express certain political views, you may be committing a crime; guide and restrict yourself accordingly? I obviously devote a substantial amount of my time and energy to critiquing the actions of the U.S. Government, but the robust free speech protection guaranteed by the First Amendment and largely protected by American courts continues to be one of the best features of American political culture.

    UPDATE: When Noam Chomsky (yes, I'm quoting him twice in one day) is asked whether he thinks America is irrevocably broken and/or whether its political process has any extremely positive features, he typically says -- as he did in this 2005 interview: "In other dimensions, the U.S. is very free. For example, freedom of speech is protected in the United States to an extent that is unique in the world." That's the critical point: as long as the State is absolutely barred from criminalizing political views, then any change remains possible because citizens are free to communicate with and persuade one another and express their political opinions without being threatened by the Government with criminal sanctions of the kind Provost Houle conveyed here and which are not infrequently issued by numerous other Canadian and European functionaries.

    UPDATE II: Just to underscore the point: last year, Canada banned the vehemently anti-war, left-wing British MP George Galloway from entering their country, on extremely dubious "national security" grounds. Galloway is a vociferous critic of Canada's involvement in the war in Afghanistan as well a defender of Hamas, which were clearly the bases for his exclusion. Though that was under a different law than the one with which Coulter is threatened, that's always the result of this mindset: those defending these sorts of speech restrictions always foolishly think that the restrictions will be confined to those views which they dislike, and then are astonished and outraged when these censorship powers are turned against views with which they agree (the Bush administration sought to exclude Muslim scholars from the U.S. who were critical of its wars based on the same rationale).

    To see how a genuinely principled individual thinks about such things, see this comment from a right-wing Canadian decrying the exclusion of Galloway despite the fact that he finds Galloway's left-wing views noxious in the extreme. In 2006, Newt Gingrich advocated that free speech rights should be restricted for "radical Muslims" because they were preaching dangerous "hatred," speech which Gingrich wanted criminalized. Those who defend "hate speech" laws like the ones in Canada and Europe are Gingrich's like-minded comrades, even if they want to criminalize different views than the ones Gingrich happened to be targeting.


    The creepy tyranny of Canada's hate speech laws - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com



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  4. #19
    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    ^^^^And yet the people who support hate speech laws like those still think they support freedom, diversity, and democracy. Mean people might be scary, but so are 'nice' people who want to legally penalize anyone who doesn't meet their narrow criteria for being a nice person as well. And of course they are the self-annointed arbitrers of what it means to be 'nice' and 'good'.
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  5. #20
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    eh once in awhile the gov does something boneheaded (like banning that guy) which is usually quickly rescinded but frankly, i'd rather have the freaks, nutcases, and inhuman haters on a leash 100% of the time than let them run free.

    Look what it does to discourse south of the border. Blech.
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  6. #21
    Super Moderator twitchy2.0's Avatar
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    Coulter tells Ont. Muslim student to 'take a camel'

    .topPhoto, .photo { width:440px; }
    Conservative author Ann Coulter addresses the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in Washington on Saturday Feb. 20, 2010. (AP / Jose Luis Magana)

    Updated: Tue Mar. 23 2010 11:02:45 AM

    CTV.ca News Staff

    It didn't take long for firebrand U.S. conservative Ann Coulter to live up to her reputation on her Canadian tour, telling a University of Western Ontario Muslim student to "take a camel" as an alternative to flying.
    Coulter made the comment Monday night after she received an email about the limits of free speech in Canada from the provost of the University of Ottawa, where she appears Tuesday.

    The private email, which was leaked to conservative news organizations, noted that Canada's Charter of Rights meant that "promoting hatred against any identifiable group would not only be considered inappropriate, but could in fact lead to criminal charges."
    Francois Houle, vice-president academic and University of Ottawa provost, invited Coulter to educate herself on Canadian free speech laws.

    "We, of course, are always delighted to welcome speakers on our campus and hope that they will contribute positively to the meaningful exchange of ideas that is the hallmark of a great university campus," wrote Houle,

    The letter only added fuel to the fire of Coulter's speaking tour, which is titled, "Political Correctness, Media Bias and Freedom of Speech."

    "I was the victim of a hate crime and plan to file a complaint with the Human Rights Commission," Coulter said Monday.

    Coulter, who wore a short black dress to her speech, is one of the most divisive characters in American conservatism.

    She is well-known for her vehement views against Muslims. In a post-September 11 column, she wrote that the U.S. should invade Muslim countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.

    It didn't take long for her controversial views to emerge at Western.
    The student, Fatima Al-Dhaher, asked Coulter about previous comments in which she said Muslims shouldn't be allowed on airplanes and should take "flying carpets" instead. Al-Dhaher noted she did not own a flying carpet and asked what she should take as an alternative transportation.

    Coulter did not deny making the flying carpet comment and replied to the university student: "What mode of transportation? Take a camel" to a mix of jeers and cheers.

    Some students walked out after the comment.

    "She stabbed me in the heart, she was rude," Al-Dhaher said. "I walked out after she said that."

    "As a female, as a Muslim, as a student of this university, I felt an obligation to kind of represent that," the student said of her question.
    Coulter spoke in front of a packed audience of about 800 at the university.

    It was a decidedly pro-Coulter audience. One man, who identified himself as a U.S. citizen, described U.S. President Barack Obama as a "Marxist."

    Wrong approach by U of Ottawa: MPs

    Coulter, who often comments on Fox News, once said Canada is "lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent" after the Canadian government did not join the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

    Her tour was organized by International Free Press Society, a group whose website sets up Islam as the preeminent threat to democracy in the Western world.

    "This jihad, like all jihads before it, will continue until a sharia-based caliphate rules the world, or until it is defeated," the society's policy statement says.

    The group also sells one of the infamous Danish Mohammad cartoons, signed by cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, for $250. They are currently sold out.

    Among the group's board of advisers are Canadian conservative bloggers Ezra Levant and Kathy Shaidle, author Mark Steyn and far-right Dutch political leader Geert Wilders.

    Coulter reportedly commands a $10,000 speaking fee. Her fee is being covered in part by the Claire Boothe Luce Policy Institute, an American group that calls itself the "home of conservative women leaders."
    Some critics say trying to quiet Coulter is the wrong approach to discrediting her views.

    "In terms of putting limits on what she ... should say or shouldn't say, I'm not sure that helps," New Democrat MP Paul Dewar, told The Canadian Press. "It might add fuel to the fire that she will be probably starting tomorrow."

    Liberal MP Scott Brison made a similar comment.

    "If you don't agree with what she has to say, then ignore her," he said.
    Coulter's Canadian tour wraps up at the University of Calgary on Thursday.

    CTV Ottawa- Coulter tells Ont. Muslim student to 'take a camel' - CTV News
    "But I am very poorly today & very stupid & I hate everybody & everything." -- Charles Darwin

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  7. #22
    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    eh once in awhile the gov does something boneheaded (like banning that guy) which is usually quickly rescinded but frankly, i'd rather have the freaks, nutcases, and inhuman haters on a leash 100% of the time than let them run free.

    Look what it does to discourse south of the border. Blech.
    You can't have any real discourse if you force anyone you disagree with to remain silent. That's the complete opposite of discourse actually.
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  8. #23
    Super Moderator twitchy2.0's Avatar
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    The hate speech laws don't silence people. It isn't meant to remove anything and everything offensive. What they do is criminalize the act of calling for the destruction or harm of an identifiable group.
    "But I am very poorly today & very stupid & I hate everybody & everything." -- Charles Darwin

    "Trump is, in my opinion, the first woman president of the United States." -- Roseanne Barr

  9. #24
    Friend of Gossip Rocks! buttmunch's Avatar
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    ^^Pretty much. It's more about incitement. Oh, and Coulter is an asshole. I can't wait until she's outed as the coke-sniffing she-male that she is.
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  10. #25
    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buttmunch View Post
    ^^Pretty much. It's more about incitement. Oh, and Coulter is an asshole. I can't wait until she's outed as the coke-sniffing she-male that she is.
    Quote Originally Posted by twitchy2.0 View Post
    The hate speech laws don't silence people. It isn't meant to remove anything and everything offensive. What they do is criminalize the act of calling for the destruction or harm of an identifiable group.
    The thing is, incitement can be interpreted very, very loosely. It is a subjective term. So pretty much , these laws are meant to silence anything that is offensive if people get accused of inciting violence just because they say out loud they believe abortion is murder or that gays shouldn't be married. They get accused of inciting homophobic violence and abortion clinic bombings. Frankly, I hold all individuals responsible for their own behavior. No one can incite me to go blow someone's head off, just like someone can't incite me to cheat on my husband. Telling someone to 'go ride a camel' is rude as fuck (and very typical of Coulter) but it isn't inciting anything beyond hurt feelings. I've yet to meet anyone who considers what they say to be 'hate speech'. Interestingly, it's always the 'offensive' things that the opposition says that is considered 'hateful'. When people say nasty things about other groups they just think they are saying 'the truth', which of course should always be permissible.
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  11. #26
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    hate to break it to you, but we had a shit ton of protests regarding gay marriage and abortion and none of them were ever broken up or stopped from happening

    we even had that loser Phelps up here, and helped him burn a canadian flag when he couldn't get it lit. right in front of parliament.
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  12. #27
    Super Moderator twitchy2.0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crumpet View Post
    So pretty much , these laws are meant to silence anything that is offensive if people get accused of inciting violence just because they say out loud they believe abortion is murder or that gays shouldn't be married. They get accused of inciting homophobic violence and abortion clinic bombings.
    No. Saying abortion is murder or gays should not marry is not hate speech. Saying that gays should die or babies could be saved if only some godly hero would just kill that evil doctor man would be urging the death of other human beings whether or not the act was carried out.

    Quote Originally Posted by crumpet View Post
    Frankly, I hold all individuals responsible for their own behavior.
    So do I. Sometimes that behaviour includes the things that come out of their mouths.
    Quote Originally Posted by crumpet View Post
    Telling someone to 'go ride a camel' is rude as fuck (and very typical of Coulter) but it isn't inciting anything beyond hurt feelings.
    Nobody said it was hate speech and she has not been charged.
    "But I am very poorly today & very stupid & I hate everybody & everything." -- Charles Darwin

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  13. #28
    Elite Member crumpet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twitchy2.0 View Post
    No. Saying abortion is murder or gays should not marry is not hate speech. Saying that gays should die or babies could be saved if only some godly hero would just kill that evil doctor man would be urging the death of other human beings whether or not the act was carried out.

    So do I. Sometimes that behaviour includes the things that come out of their mouths.

    Nobody said it was hate speech and she has not been charged.
    Let's not pretend that there aren't people who don't view it all as hate speech because to them those basic ideas are what leads to the belief that it is okay to kill abortion providers, gays, etc. There are people who claim that people expressing those beliefs leads to a culture of fear, where people are afraid to go to an abortion clinic or Planned Parenthood because they insist that if you think abortion is murder that you feel it is acceptable to kill those who murder babies, or to kill gays for violating God's word. i never said that is applicable to all people who support hate speech laws but those folks have their share of fringe nutters,too.
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  14. #29
    Super Moderator twitchy2.0's Avatar
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    Just because 'some people' might see it that way does not mean it meets the legal definition. Many cases of claimed hate speech are not successful and get tossed out upon examination. That still does not silence opposing views.
    "But I am very poorly today & very stupid & I hate everybody & everything." -- Charles Darwin

    "Trump is, in my opinion, the first woman president of the United States." -- Roseanne Barr

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    I think she takes kind of a Mad Libs approach to speaking at this point. Like, if speaking to/about a Muslim, say 'camel' etc.

    Ultimately, she's a boring twat and we should just wait for her to choke on her schtick.

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