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Thread: For Californians: Prop. 8 winning

  1. #106
    Elite Member Str8_uncut-jock's Avatar
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    *they are winning more states each year in the US....so far they have constitutional amendments in 21 states (at last count) that ban same sex marriage. The majority rarely stands up and does the right thing for those who have no voice.

  2. #107
    Elite Member Shinola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beeyotch View Post
    Because it's unfair and unconstitutional to strip civil rights from any minority groups. Even if I'm not a part of that minority group, I know damn well it's wrong and I can't help but speak out against it. It's like being a bystander in a horrible traffic accident: it doesn't directly affect you but you know it's wrong if those people died just because you couldn't be bothered to help.
    I have friends who are gay. I care about them and want for them to have rights.

    I have a son who could one day come to me and tell me he's gay. I would like him to have rights, in that case.

    Here's an interesting tidbit from Wikipedia:

    According to the federal government's Government Accountability Office (GAO), more than 1,138 rights and protections are conferred to U.S. citizens upon marriage by the federal government; areas affected include Social Security benefits, veterans' benefits, health insurance, Medicaid, hospital visitation, estate taxes, retirement savings, pensions, family leave, and immigration law.
    That's a lot of rights.

    But I agree with Beeyotch--why should I have to be personally affected, why should I have to be gay, to care about gay rights? Civil rights matter in a democracy. Why should anyone have to defend the conviction that this is an important issue?
    Posted from my fucking iPhone

  3. #108
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Str8_uncut-jock View Post
    *they are winning more states each year in the US....so far they have constitutional amendments in 21 states (at last count) that ban same sex marriage. The majority rarely stands up and does the right thing for those who have no voice.
    Yeah, see this is qhy rights should be handed down from the federal level, and after having gone through the courts.

    You dont fucking VOTE for rights. That's moronic.

    Equality should be FORCED on people whether they like it or not, frankly. Equality is NOT a negative. There is no downside to equality.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  4. #109
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    I've been involved with this cause before it was a cause. Since about 1991 for me. And always I've made the point that the angle should be about building a family rather than marriage.

    I don't think straight people understand that its about family. Family. Family not marriage, not about acceptance.

    To me if you take the stand that pursuit of happiness is a constitional right and the most basic constitutional right of happiness is the ability to make a family. Its not just that you can't get married to your lover. Its that you can't adopt your children. Its that you are not related to your own family. Being married is a step in that direction. The anger and demands of equality don't work. Its a shame.

  5. #110
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beeyotch View Post
    Because it's unfair and unconstitutional to strip civil rights from any minority groups. Even if I'm not a part of that minority group, I know damn well it's wrong and I can't help but speak out against it. It's like being a bystander in a horrible traffic accident: it doesn't directly affect you but you know it's wrong if those people died just because you couldn't be bothered to help.
    To quote just that portion is taking the meaning horribly out of context. That quoted remark was actually in response to someone who basically said if it doesn't concern you to mind your own damn business. Using the logic of minding one's own business, if one is not gay, one shouldn't give a damn whether gays have marriage rights or not. Minding one's own business cuts both ways.

    Legally speaking, one does not have to intervene unless said person's action directly caused the situation which posed danger to someone. Morally, it would be the person's responsibility to help. Legally, it would not be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Str8_uncut-jock View Post
    At this point the only thing I am hearing from you is that I should shut the fuck up and say thank ya massa for letting me have my civil liberty scraps from the equality table. Civil disobedience has not worked. Living a "normal" productive life where I contribute substantially to the tax base and intellectual captial of my district and country has not worked. I have followed all the rules. I have settled into a nice neighborhood, attended college (several actually, earning a bachelors degree, a masters degree and a doctorate), got a great job, paid taxes, voted, supported my fellow Americans and played by the rules. The only thing it has done for my civil rights is make it easy for discriminators to smile at me while they stab me in the back. It makes it easy for them to ignore me.
    You aren't hearing that from me. You are taking my words and twisting them as you read them. That's your right. It doesn't matter if you like the situation. What you like doesn't change the way it it.

    I don't back down from bullshit. Why would I tell someone else to do it? What I have done is examine my approach and change it as necessary to accomplish my goal. If the current strategy is failing, that means it is time for a new one.

    This can be hashed out for eighty pages. To be totally blunt and honest, the hostile, demanding approach is going to set you back. You want to come down on those telling you how people, like the ones who supported Prop 8, feel and think. Go for it. You aren't affecting me.

    Like I said before, I have the right to marry. I have it and don't even plan to use it again. You can compare this to miscegenation laws and other race based civil rights issues, but it really isn't. Whites, blacks, hispanics, asians, etc. voted to pass a proposition which took gay marriage rights away.

    Gays obviously don't want a straight person's support, so, in the future, I will remember that, and not offer it. As it has been pointed out before, I'm not gay, so it isn't my business. That means it isn't my fight either, if that reasoning is utilized.

    I don't support someone's basic rights being stomped upon, but I sure as hell will not hold out a helping hand to someone who is going to sink his teeth into it.

    I won't condone it, but I won't fight for either side. I'll sit on the fence and watch the boxing match, since it's none of my business.



  6. #111
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    You're sitting there telling us what YOUR side hears.

    We're telling you what we've been hearing ever since we've been born.

    Your side's discomfiture is irrelevant compared to our oppression.

    It's like saying "Well, how do you think WE feel? We have to ride the bus with you, even though you're in the back".. like we should be glad we got on the bus at all.

    Think about it.

    Playing nice has gotten us nothing. Assimilating has gotten us nothing. Toning down has gotten us nothing. Pulling the veneer of straight normalcy over us has gotten us nothing.

    If you want to sit on the fence regarding equality, because we aren't playing or reacting how you would like to the situation, that's fine. We need people who are as pissed off as us, not fairweather supporters who will turn tail and kick back when their sensibilities are ruffled.
    Last edited by Grimmlok; November 7th, 2008 at 07:23 AM.
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  7. #112
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    You call it playing nice. Those with common sense call it strategy.

    Keep talking and insulting those who could help you. Every "fuck you" and "shame on you" is just giving your opponents more ammo, in the way of supporters.

    If you're too indignant and hostile to listen to the feedback and information coming your way, it's your call.

    This elections sent a clear message to the gay community. Those who work with you, live next to you, even invite you to barbecues change their minds when in that booth.

    I am not a fairweather supporter. I am not turning tail. Only cowards and the weak run. I stand my ground and fight, so don't bother insinuating I don't.

    Insult ethnic and racial minorities all you want. Widen the gap. Those minorities have what you want. They don't need your support.

    Comparing this to the ethnic civil rights movement won't work. It isn't the same. Being nasty and hostile has proven to work. Calling out ethnic minorities isn't going to get you one supporter.

    As Prop 8 has shown, your fairweather supporters are the booth opposers.

    Just because someone calls it the way it is doesn't mean they are against you.

    And don't you dare tell me I don't know what discrimination is. You have no fucking idea how much I have seen and still see. I know it. I live it.



  8. #113
    Elite Member cmmdee's Avatar
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    So what is going to happen to people who married under this law? And now the law is being taken back? Does their marraige not count?
    It's so fucky.

  9. #114
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    I think what Revelling is saying Grimmlok is that from the straight side its pretty obvious that the gay community is being manipulated pretty badly in all of this in order to win.

    However to say to Revelling, I think what Grimmlok is trying to point out is this is not a "gay" issue. This is a human rights issue. A civil rights issue and a precendence setting issue. If the public is allowed to "vote on" who gets rights, (something that's never been allowed before) then you are turning this into a tyranny of the masses situation.

    I think the issue is not a "gay rights" issue. And since its been divided into sides this way its suggesting that homosexuals are somehow "less than" regular straight folks and should learn how to do as master says if he wants to get his dinner.

    Human rights belong to humans. They are not dispensed by the majority to the miniority.
    Last edited by flipstick; November 7th, 2008 at 09:40 AM.

  10. #115
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    You call it playing nice. Those with common sense call it strategy.
    The people it affects have called it a failed strategy for 30 years.

    Keep talking and insulting those who could help you. Every "fuck you" and "shame on you" is just giving your opponents more ammo, in the way of supporters.
    No, we only do that to people who would continue supporting such bigotry. Those on board with equality are fine.

    If you're too indignant and hostile to listen to the feedback and information coming your way, it's your call.
    Honey, we've listened to it since we were born. The information and feedback is still the same. Play nice, assimilate, pretend, fool people, and maybe, JUST MAYBE someone will be nice enough to give you equality if you look, act, and live just like they do.

    This elections sent a clear message to the gay community. Those who work with you, live next to you, even invite you to barbecues change their minds when in that booth.
    Of course. Hence why equality is not up for a vote and should be forcibly applied.

    I am not a fairweather supporter. I am not turning tail. Only cowards and the weak run. I stand my ground and fight, so don't bother insinuating I don't.
    Then don't say you're going to sit it out because you don't like it when someone elses opinion conflicts with how you think things should be done from a position of contextual entitlement.

    Insult ethnic and racial minorities all you want. Widen the gap. Those minorities have what you want. They don't need your support.
    Who the hell is doing that? I haven't. However, since 70% of the black community that DID vote voted FOR oppression, they have some answering to do. Same with whatever percentages of hispanics, asians, and crackers. You're damned right I'll give a big mighty FUCK YOU to anybody who would take rights away from another group. They earned it.

    Comparing this to the ethnic civil rights movement won't work. It isn't the same.
    A minority being denied equality. Sounds pretty 'civil rights' to me. Maybe such ethnic minorities don't want gays to jump on their rights bandwagon because it's THEIRS.. but rights are rights, and frankly, gays are PAN ETHNIC. We're everywhere. No minority is as diverse. We cross all ethnic boundaries, so in a sense, we're even more damned deserving.

    Being nasty and hostile has proven to work. Calling out ethnic minorities isn't going to get you one supporter.
    Again, I call out those who would side with oppression. If one particular group has a larger percentage of bigots, they get called out more.

    As Prop 8 has shown, your fairweather supporters are the booth opposers.
    Up theirs, too.

    Just because someone calls it the way it is doesn't mean they are against you.
    No, you're calling it the way YOU see it. The way YOU see it is not how it inherently is.

    I'm calling it the way I see it.

    And don't you dare tell me I don't know what discrimination is. You have no fucking idea how much I have seen and still see. I know it. I live it.
    Yet, until very recently, you hadn't managed to see the very same kind of discrimination of gays?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  11. #116
    Hit By Ban Bus! Lily's Avatar
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    I was just talking about this with some friends and we're really disgusted with the whole thing. It makes me sad. My gay friends are in solid relationships, they are beautiful people, and I couldn't care less that they are gay. Nobody should care. It's not a defect. It's not a sin. It's not a perversion. They're not mentally ill, they are not evil. They are not to be pitied. I don't understand treat the gay community like second-class citizens. We are talking about a group of human beings who love and work and deserve to have what everybody else does. To deny them that right and to tell them that they aren't worthy of the same rights as straight people makes me sick.
    It's so sad.

  12. #117
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    We want equality, and then to be left alone. That's it.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  13. #118
    Elite Member Sweetie's Avatar
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    It's sad to think in 2008 that people still aren't considered equal.

    You would think after all we have gone through with race issues, that people would realize we are all the same, no matter what.

  14. #119
    Hit By Ban Bus! Lily's Avatar
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    ^I don't understand why people have a problem with that! It's bigotry. I believe in God, but I don't think God has any problem with people who love each other and are faithful and committed. I don't see how that should be anyone's business. Who the hell are we to legislate such a thing.

  15. #120
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Thing is, then the slippery slope stuff is brought up again...
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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