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Thread: For Californians: Prop. 8 winning

  1. #76
    Elite Member crackho's Avatar
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    We need to drop the damn "marriage" word in our fight once and for all and get a federal regulation that will require all states to recognize a legally binding civil union that affords the same rights as marriage to any consenting couple. Just don't call it marriage, for Christ sake. We have wasted a lot of time and energy when we could have been fighting for legal rights. Personally, I would rather have a civil union law and a great hate crime bill passed than I would the right to "marry".
    Last edited by crackho; November 6th, 2008 at 07:45 AM.

    My my, didn't we all just dip our tongues in some acid today.

  2. #77
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    ^^I agree. Get the right put in the books, then go after refining it to be exactly what it should be.

    You can have it all, you may just have to acquire one piece at a time. Is it fair? Absolutely not. Will it work? Definitely.



  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Marrying a dog? So, bestiality is fine, as long as the animal is consenting?

    That logic, that comment is the perfect example of the "slippery slope" conservative, and some liberals, use as the basis for their for voting for prop 8 and other similar measures. When comments like that one are made by gays, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

    A nine year old being assaulted by an adult isn't my business either, if that child is no relation to me. The action doesn't affect me or anyone close to me. That doesn't mean I have no say.

    While some don't oppose gay marriage, apathy towards the plight is just as detrimental to the progress of the movement.

    Gays can't know the other side. You aren't straight. You aren't the majority. You may have been surrounded by it, but you have never been a part of it. Whether you like it or not, someone who knows the other side is telling you several things.

    One, the combative method is ineffective and could push those who support you now to the other side.

    Two, making comments that can be inferred as meaning anything currently seen as immoral is fine if it isn't hurting anyone else is adding fuel to the campaigns against you.

    Three, supporting those who don't seem to want your support is difficult. Opponents have the right to marry. Using the same "if it isn't my business..." logic, why should they support gay marriage and vote against bans? It doesn't affect them.

    "Why do people give a damn about things that aren't their business?"

    Good question. Since gay marriage isn't any straight person's business, why should any straights care? We can marry our partners any time we like.
    This is a really good point. One of the things that bothers me so much is the idea of acceptance. Trying to teach tolerance to kids in school. Its just blowing up the whole thing in everyone's faces.

    I think you make a very good point about people not understanding the straight perspective.

    The angle I've always used is not marriage but family. That by denying a gay couple the right to marriage they are denying them a legal family. And this is the "pursuit of happiness" angle that in my opinion should be addressed.

    All of the points you just made are significant. But also one that I've heard so many times from people. That is, no one is telling a gay person they can't get married. Marriage is available to everyone. But marriage is between a man and a woman. If a gay man wants to get married and finds a woman he wants to share his life with then he can do that. He's not being denied that right, but don't ask me to ruin what marriage is because he wants to call marrying a man marriage, its not marriage its something else.

    So a lot of straight people have no real motivation to want to change marriage.

  4. #79
    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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  5. #80
    Elite Member Sweetie's Avatar
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    I really wish they would go about their cause with a little more class.

    This whole "go fuck yourself" statement just makes that guy look unintelligent and not worth listening too.

    http://blogs.laweekly.com/ladaily/Po...ally%20078.jpg

  6. #81
    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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    ^ I laughed

  7. #82
    Elite Member celeb_2006's Avatar
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    Default Why Gay Marriage Was Defeated in California

    Why Gay Marriage Was Defeated in California - Yahoo! News

    Nov. 4 may have been a joyous day for liberals, but it wasn't a great day for lesbians and gays. Three big states - Arizona, California and Florida - voted to change their constitutions to define marriage as a heterosexuals-only institution. The losses cut deep on the gay side. Arizona had rejected just such a constitutional amendment only two years ago. It had been the first and only state to have rebuffed a constitutional ban on marriage equality. In Florida, where the law requires constitutional amendments to win by 60%, a marriage amendment passed with disturbing ease, 62.1% to 37.9%.


    And then there was California. Gay strategists working for marriage equality in this election cycle had focused most of their attention on that state. Losing there dims hopes that shimmered brightly just a few weeks ago - hopes that in an Obama America, straight people would be willing to let gay people have the basic right to equality in their personal relationships. It appears not.


    The California vote was close but not razor-thin: as of 10 a.m. P.T., with 96.4% of precincts reporting, gays had lost 52.2% to 47.8%. Obama did not suffer the much-discussed "Bradley effect" this year, but it appears that gay people were afflicted by some version of it. As of late October, a Field Poll found that the pro-gay side was winning 49% to 44%, with 7% undecided. But gays could not quite make it to 49% on Election Day, meaning a few people may have been unwilling to tell pollsters that they intended to vote against equal marriage rights.


    Gays are used to losing these constitutional amendment battles - as I said, Arizona was the only exception - but gay activists cannot claim they didn't have the money to wage the California fight. According to an analysis of the most recent reports from the California secretary of state, the pro-equality side raised an astonishing $43.6 million, compared with just $29.8 million for those who succeeded in keeping gays from marrying.

    The money the gay side raised is surprising for two reasons: first, the cash-Hoover known as the Obama campaign was sucking down millions of dollars a day from the nation's liberals. Many gays expected it to be difficult to raise money to fight Proposition 8 and its plan to outlaw same-sex marriage from Democrats eager to give to Obama and to the outside 527 groups supporting him. As recently as August, one of the nation's top gay political givers told me that he expected the gay side to raise no more than $25 million.


    But a series of high-profile Hollywood donations, as well as a frantic, nationwide push for gays to get out their checkbooks, turned out to be quite successful in the short term. East Coast gays had been lulled into inaction by the Oct. 10 Connecticut Supreme Court decision granting gay couples the right to marry - a decision that hadn't required gays to write a single check. But gay people in Los Angeles and San Francisco cajoled and shamed their Eastern friends into opening their wallets. Thousands of California gay couples got married in the past few weeks, and I didn't see a single invitation to a gay ceremony that didn't include a plea to donate to the pro-equality campaign in lieu of buying wedding gifts.


    Still, even though gays were fighting to preserve a basic right, it was the anti-equality side in California that seemed to have the most fervor. A symbolic low point for the gay side came on Oct. 13, when the Sacramento Bee ran a remarkable story about Rick and Pam Patterson, a Mormon couple of modest means - he drives a 10-year-old Honda Civic, she raises their five boys - who had withdrawn $50,000 from their savings account and given it to the pro-8 campaign. "It was a decision we made very prayerfully," Pam Patterson, 48, told the Bee's Jennifer Garza. "Was it an easy decision? No. But it was a clear decision, one that had so much potential to benefit our children and their children."


    You could argue that marriage equality has little to do with children, but Patterson seemed to speak to Californians' inchoate phobias about gays and kids. On the Friday before the Bee story appeared, a group of San Francisco first-graders was taken to city hall to see their lesbian teacher marry her partner. Apparently the field trip was a parent's idea - not the teacher's - but the optics of the event were terrible for the gay side. It seemed like so much indoctrination.


    That news came around the same time the pro-amendment forces were running a devastating ad showing a self-satisfied San Francisco mayor Gavin Newsom shouting wild-eyed at a rally that same-sex marriage was inevitable "whether you like it or not." The announcer then said darkly, "It's no longer about tolerance. Acceptance of gay marriage is now mandatory." Many fence sitters were turned off by Newsom's arrogance; blogger Andrew Sullivan attributed mid-October polls against the gay side to the "Newsom effect."


    Gays came back in some polls, but they couldn't pull out a win. Part of the reason is that Obama inspired unprecedented numbers of African Americans to vote. Polls show that black voters are more likely to attend church than whites and less likely to be comfortable with equality for gay people. According to CNN, African Americans voted against marriage equality by a wide margin, 69% to 31%. High turnout of African Americans in Florida probably help explain that state's lopsided vote to ban same-sex weddings.


    Gays did win some victories yesterday. A new openly gay member of Congress, Jared Polis of Colorado, will go to the House in January. And thanks in part to the Cabinet, the group of [a {e}]lite gay political donors I wrote about recently, Democrats took the New York senate. The entire New York legislature is now in Democratic hands, and New York's governor, David Paterson, is one of the nation's most eloquent pro-marriage-equality representatives. He is also, by the way, African American. Perhaps he can help bridge the gap between gays and blacks that widened on Nov. 4.

  8. #83
    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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  9. #84
    Elite Member L1049's Avatar
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    1 step forward, 2 steps back.

  10. #85
    Elite Member DeadDwarf's Avatar
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    First off, most of the people I know that voted to ban gay marriage are 40+ years old. Second, nearly all of them are DIVORCED. What the fuck do they know about the sanctity of marriage?

    What a fucking joke this is!

    I constanty hear "Keep marriage between a man and woman because gays will make a mockery of it!"

    HETEROS make a mockery of marriage. Do you know how many pathetic HETEROS I know married and divorced before their 5th anniversary? Do you know how many HETEROS are on their 2nd and 3rd marriages by 40?! Do you realize how many HETEROS get knocked up and run to the alter pregnant?!

    Maybe we should propose an amendment to ban HETEROSEXUAL marriage because they are so shitty at it!

    Does anyone else see the hypocrisy? I'm a married heterosexual, but I can see the false "sanctity" of marriage daily.

  11. #86
    Elite Member Shinola's Avatar
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    The whole thing about kids pisses me off. My son goes to school with an adopted boy whose mothers were the first gay/lesbian couple to legally wed in my county. My kid has known this kid and his moms for three years, and it has never been an issue one way or another. There is no need to "teach" anything, as in the book "Heather Has Two Mommies." This is just how it is--the boy has a family, and it's slightly different from our family, and none of the kids at school have ever so much as blinked an eye about it.

    But we are a tolerant and progressive community, overall. So if someone feels some kind of teaching has to be done to get kids to tolerate gay marriage, then I suppose it must be in order to undo something negative that they learned elsewhere--from their own parents, or in church, or from other kids who learned that it is "bad" from some authority figure.

    When I drove up to my polling place, there were children waving "Yes on 8" signs at everyone. (I knew then that the measure would pass.)

    Sorry to ramble.
    Posted from my fucking iPhone

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    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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    LOL at the last 2 posts. so true, so true...

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    Elite Member Str8_uncut-jock's Avatar
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    It is discrimination, pure and simple, against a country's own people. It is not different, not a spec different, from when our people discriminated against african-americans in this country and refused them equal rights under the law. When our own people discriminated against interracial couples and refused to let them marry. The same arguments were used then...if we let these "animals" marry, they will be the downfall of our great society.

    For generations our country has been a paradox of conflicting beliefs...on the one hand declaring our freedom and equal rights while with the other holding down a group of our own citizens. It is disgusting...and no matter how you dress it up, no matter what religion you put on it, no matter what scare tactics you use...it still boils down to our own country discriminating against it's people.

    Some day I pray that the people in our citizenry will realize what they have done. I pray they will look back on this moment and countless others and be ashamed of how they treated their friends, co-workers, neighbors, children, brothers, sisters and parents.

    No true democracy really flourishes when they treat their own people in this way. It is disheartening and defeating, demoralizing and deceitful. I hope all of those who support oppression will some day see the light and realize equal rights are not special rights. Equal rights are not a priviledge. Equal rights are not sacred for the chosen few. They are equal for all.

    I hope you can hear the sadness in my words...the emptiness in my heart for the treatment being shown to me and millions more. Supporters of discrimination may think this will stop a slippery slop, but I think it is just the continuation of a slippery slope of oppression. I expect soon that my people will be further alienated from the mainstream (to save children or some other lame excuse). We will not be allowed to be teachers. We will not be allowed to serve our country. We will not be allowed to eat in the same restaurants or drink from the same water fountains. I may be a little dramatic, but it has happened in our country...by citizens who had strong convictions and who thought they were doing the right thing at the time. I am scared for what the future holds.

  14. #89
    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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    ^ i kno, as a straight person with any gay friends or aquaintances how can you ever look them in the face again if you voted YES on 8?!!! those ppl should be ashamed!

  15. #90
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Time to be blunt.

    In all this, I feel sorry for one group. I feel sorry for the communicative, eloquent gay people who work hard for their rights only to have rude, obnoxious, loudmouths drown out their voices. This isn't an insult to gays, as the blacks have their loudmouth, obnoxious shit stirrers still causing trouble. Sharpton and Jackson are the first who come to mind. I want them to shut the hell up, but I haven't been close enough to muzzle them yet.

    As I said before, the gay rights movement is its own worst enemy. You are up against a number that is much higher than ethnic minorities ever faced. Why? When minorities fought for their rights, they were fighting against one group. Gays are fighting against a group that consist of people from many sub-groups. You're outnumbered and telling the non-gays "fuck you" and calling them pathetic isn't going to get you any damn where.

    I may be a minority, but I can walk in the very groups who are snatching your rights away and when I point out the thinking, I am shot down and insulted.

    You know what that tells me? You don't care. If you did, you would shove the anger, shut your mouths for one minute, and listen. You can argue with me, tell me I am wrong, tell me I don't know what the voters who backed prop 8 think, tell me the logic is crazy, or whatever else you want to. You're wrong. I've been there. I've done that. I know what the "bigots" think when referring to gay marriage.

    Until you can approach this as what it is, a war, and use proper tactics, you won't get even recognized civil unions. Pissing off the very people you need to back you isn't going to work.

    If the comparison to the blacks is going to keep being brought up, at least look at the whole picture. Don't compare the black civil rights movement to the gay civil rights movement if you are not willing to look at how it was done and employ similar methods. Remember peaceful protests? It wasn't the Black Panther tactics which succeeded. Try looking at Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and those who followed him.

    Take this any way you want to. If you continue to be hostile and insult hetero's you could very well find some of the hetero supporters jumping the fence and voting against you strictly because of the way you approach this.

    These are rights gays want and het's already have. It really doesn't matter to any hetero if you get them or not. Apathy does not imply het's will vote against you. It also doesn't imply they will vote for you. Anger, however, could lead to spite and that "yes" to prop whatever being checked.

    Until the face of the gay rights movement changes, progress will be slow. It's not my fight to lose or win, so approach it however you like.

    This isn't an attempt to undermine the gay rights movement. It's advice, coming from the other side. In war, it's called intel and it is quite valuable.



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