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Thread: For Californians: Prop. 8 winning

  1. #61
    Elite Member MrsMarsters's Avatar
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    The major problem is these idiots banned together and raised quite a few. I remember looking at the no on prop 8 sites, and they had barely raised a few million. If we didn't/do want things like this to be passed we have to make a difference, by raising awareness, telling people we know, putting up signs. So many "no" on prop 8 people were disorganized. I tell you one thing those "Yes" on 8 retards were damn organized and trying to let everyone know about it. So, i think it is all our faults too, for not going the extra mile also.

  2. #62
    Elite Member MrsMarsters's Avatar
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    What amazes me there was only nearly 2 million votes? So, exactly how many gays had voted against this bill in ca? I am sure there are over 2 million in this state alone, so I am wondering, were they not voting against this bill also?

  3. #63
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    For those who oppose gay marriage, their reasoning is logical, even if the basis for that reasoning is religious.

    I will play the DA here for a moment.

    One argument: Marriage is the joining of a man and woman. Since the union was used to create a family unit and ready for procreation, gays can't have a traditional marriage, as they can not procreate.

    Yes, that is an instance in which religion and government intersect, which many have agreed should not happen.

    While arguing for separation of church and state, many fail to see just how much of this country's law is religion based.

    When dealing with conservatives, or even liberals who have strong religious beliefs, if there is a situation which seems to threaten to cut into the fence which holds associated taboo actions at bay, they will rebel against the matter facing them at that moment.

    For a moment, let's pretend gay marriage is legal in all fifty states. A federal law passes and the bans are lifted due to being unconstitutional. Can that decision lead to challenges by others who have non-traditional views? Just how far can the laws stretch? How many other verboten lifestyles/situations will have to be legalized to ensure civil rights are given to all?

    "Slippery slope" has become a common phrase in recent weeks. Opposing gay marriage could be seen as protecting the country from sliding on the aforementioned. There could be more challenges, from people such as polygamists, who see an opportunity to have the laws changed to suit their desires.

    End of DA roleplay.

    It isn't always bigotry behind these ideals and actions. It very well could be fear and paranoia.

    Instead of condemning the opposition and fighting, which heightens the fright, thorough, candid discussion and airtight planning could give both sides what they want; gay people would have the right to wed, while true taboos are barred from ever gaining legality.

    Of course, there is always the question of which taboos should no longer be labeled as such.

    Another interesting tidbit. I know several gay people who are opponents of gay marriage.



  4. #64
    Elite Member nycgirl's Avatar
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    I know you're just playing DA, but to respond to the first argument- even most straights don't have "traditional marriages," there's a 50% divorce rate and some couples don't want to get married just to start a family or have kids. I understand people have a lot of views on gay marriage, but none of the arguments against it really seem to have much validity.

  5. #65
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    There are gay republicans too, doesn't make them right

    and the slippery slope argument is so bunk

    nothing has slid anywhere else
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  6. #66
    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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    oh give me a fucking break to all their "reasoning", for fucks sake!

    and no one really "banned" together. the mormon church has a huge amount of money due to the fact that they make their followers give like 30% of their income to them and they used these millions to make ridiculous fear-mongering out-right stupid commercials. i even laughed at these commercials. but now im just angry.

  7. #67
    Gold Member ymeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Another interesting tidbit. I know several gay people who are opponents of gay marriage.

    every movement has a Judas, that is pretty common, like the black man who urged McCain to 'take it to' Obama.

    People shouldn't be denied rights based on what 'could' happen. Gay marriage is about gender discrimination at root, not about polyamory or turtle-nuptials or whatever. It's about one or the other party in the union being barred from marrying whom they choose because of their gender. It is still two people, still very traditional.

  8. #68
    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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    well i kno a lot of gays who need a shoulder to cry on right now, this is very heartbreaking to say the least!

  9. #69
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycgirly101 View Post
    I know you're just playing DA, but to respond to the first argument- even most straights don't have "traditional marriages," there's a 50% divorce rate and some couples don't want to get married just to start a family or have kids. I understand people have a lot of views on gay marriage, but none of the arguments against it really seem to have much validity.
    Personally, and I know I will catch hell for this, I don't believe in marriage. If it works for someone else and they are happy, great. For me, it doesn't fit my life.

    I was definitely not supporting that line of thinking. I was trying to illustrate the thought process some opponents may have. I know it, because I bought into it for a long time. Honestly, the arguments against GM are rooted in religion, which permeates the bible belt more than even those of us who live here realize. It takes conscious effort to break away from some ideas that have been drilled into one's consciousness every day, all day, for decades.

    Really, not all opponents are bad people, bigots, oppressors, etc. Some have never known anything else and fear what they don't know and/or what goes against the "norm" in their area.

    You may not like hearing the reasoning, but I can tell you now, the forceful, dismissive approach will not get you anywhere. What do you think the people who voted to support prop 8 did to gay rights advocates?

    If neither side is willing to gather intel, discuss, and work through the differences, don't point fingers when nothing changes. Dismissing someone who is explaining what some opponents feels isn't what I would do.

    jmho



  10. #70
    Elite Member Shinola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymeman View Post
    turtle-nuptials
    Posted from my fucking iPhone

  11. #71
    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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    oh yeah that old "slippery slope" nonsense holds no water watsoever.

  12. #72
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Slippery slope could very much so hold water. If any argument is approached with the right strategy, it can be won, regardless of how wrong it is.

    If gay marriage bans are cut down as unconstitutional, what would prevent polygamists from challenging laws? Calm the fears; win the support.

    Again, both sides bickering and bitching won't get anyone anywhere. You aren't hurting the opponents. They have the right to marry. I have the right to marry, even though I won't use it again, as far as I can see.

    My way or the highway isn't very effective.



  13. #73
    Hit By Ban Bus! AliceInWonderland's Avatar
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    i could care less about polygamy as well, if that what retards wanna do then let them! just dont force children into it the way those cults in Utah and texas and elsewhere have done. lets drop our views and versions of taboos and just use logic.

    protest demonstration against prop 8
    Category: Other
    When: Today, November 5 2008, 7:00pm
    Where: West Hollywood Park2.5 star ratingbased on 2 reviews
    647 N San Vicente Blvd
    West Hollywood, CA

    How: Official Website

    Cost: Free
    Submitted by: JayChan H. See all JayChan H.'s events
    What/Why: Proposition 8 Protest Rally & Street Closures Wednesday, November 5th

    As deeply disappointed as some of us are that California voters passed Proposition
    8, we must not allow that disappointment to linger. This vote is a temporary
    defeat in the long march toward equal rights for all citizens in America .

    Please join us for a protest rally tonight at 7 pm on San Vicente
    Blvd between West Hollywood Park and the Pacific Design Center ( 647 N.
    San Vicente Blvd. West Hollywood CA 90069 ) as we move forward towards
    restoring equality for ALL in California .

    San Vicente Blvd, between Santa Monica Blvd and Melrose Avenue will be
    closed tonight starting at 6 pm. San Vicente south-bound traffic will be
    directed to make left or right at Santa Monica Blvd. Signs have already been
    posted to help divert traffic.

  14. #74
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Who cares if polygamists marry 50 people. Does that affect anybody else?

    If some nutjob wants to marry a dog and smear himself in green jello, go right ahead. Does it affect me? No.

    Why do people give a damn about things that aren't their business?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  15. #75
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Marrying a dog? So, bestiality is fine, as long as the animal is consenting?

    That logic, that comment is the perfect example of the "slippery slope" conservative, and some liberals, use as the basis for their for voting for prop 8 and other similar measures. When comments like that one are made by gays, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

    A nine year old being assaulted by an adult isn't my business either, if that child is no relation to me. The action doesn't affect me or anyone close to me. That doesn't mean I have no say.

    While some don't oppose gay marriage, apathy towards the plight is just as detrimental to the progress of the movement.

    Gays can't know the other side. You aren't straight. You aren't the majority. You may have been surrounded by it, but you have never been a part of it. Whether you like it or not, someone who knows the other side is telling you several things.

    One, the combative method is ineffective and could push those who support you now to the other side.

    Two, making comments that can be inferred as meaning anything currently seen as immoral is fine if it isn't hurting anyone else is adding fuel to the campaigns against you.

    Three, supporting those who don't seem to want your support is difficult. Opponents have the right to marry. Using the same "if it isn't my business..." logic, why should they support gay marriage and vote against bans? It doesn't affect them.

    "Why do people give a damn about things that aren't their business?"

    Good question. Since gay marriage isn't any straight person's business, why should any straights care? We can marry our partners any time we like.



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