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Thread: Bush now bans any photo coverage of wounded soldiers

  1. #31
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Yeah... The official line for civilian casualties is that they don't keep track.. the Red Cross puts the number at about 100,000+ so far
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  2. #32
    Elite Member Sweetie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonham View Post
    Um, does anyone care about the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis?
    We're talking probably millions of orphaned children, raped and tortured women, not to mention all the dead husbands, wives, mothers, fathers and of course the thousands of dead children.
    Oops sorry, forgot that brown skinned Middle Eastern Muslims are the world's second most expendable people behind Africans.

    OMG

  3. #33
    Elite Member nwgirl's Avatar
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    In response to EvilMonkey:

    - Invasion is War, Pretty simple concept.

    You’re correct. However, I’m a little surprised that you’re unwilling to read between the lines, so to be clear - the point I was trying to make was that the situation in Iraq is more…worse…different than just plain war. Although it fits all the technical definitions of war, to me (and based on what I have experienced in my lifetime), war for the US has meant protecting ourselves, freedom and/or democracy in general. It hasn’t meant taking over a country for our own agenda. And I think this “war” has nothing to do with protecting ourselves, freedom or democracy.

    Before you get your pants in a twist about any factual misrepresentations or errors I may have made pertaining to wars the US has been involved in during my lifetime, let me make this disclaimer: I believe there are other reasons for war, period. I understand there are political, economic and numerous other ramifications and gains that can be had by going to war, which may have nothing to do with actually protecting democracy or freedom or whatever. However, the proof of these other agendas has never been so overwhelmingly clear and readily available as it is for this war.

    - Please state Principles of War from fact not your own assumption. I am quoting from the doctrine of Manoeuvre warfare as used by the most modern military forces.

    My principle doesn’t come from any written doctrine. It comes from independent thought. Which, given how well spoken you are, I would assume you would be familiar with. I don’t have to have everything written down for me to reference to be able to make a connection. If your “from fact” statement were to be heeded, we’d still be living in caves or believing the world was flat. Most of the advances we have in the world today came as the result of people going, and thinking, outside the box, and not relying on, or being bound by, conventional thought or established “fact”. I obviously do not count myself as anyone whose thinking will change the world, but instead use it as an example of how you don’t have to derive every thought you have from other people. Just because there is a written doctrine outlining someone else’s principles of war doesn’t mean I can’t have my own.

    - Kevlar and Strike plates only protect from small arms and shrapnel. Not Blast injury which is around 75% of your casualty rate at the moment. So dont believe the hype.

    I’m not talking about the type of protection they have. I’m talking about the fact that there isn’t enough body armor to go around. I’m talking about the fact that they don’t have enough armored humvees to do their jobs properly. This comes directly from my nephew who is on the front lines. Sorry I can’t provide a quote to you.

    - Add the Allied nations casualties up and the count comes to 3750 including US cas. That count also includes accidental deaths ( Negligent weapon discharges, Vehicle accidents, helicopter crashes etc and suicides ( 104 suicides ) all of which happen in peacetime too. Australia has yet to lose a soldier to combat, we have had two accidental deaths. We have had more at home in training than in Iraq or afghanistan.

    Is that number fine to you, considering what we know now (and that which was suspected long before the facts ever came out)? Because that’s what bugs me most about your entire post – the undercurrent (and let’s be honest, blatant statement) of “so what”. That number is not fine to me. And comparing it to an act of terrorism that was perpetrated by a group of people from a country other than the one we’re occupying, doesn’t seem like much justification for the number of people who have died. Nor does comparing it to being a better situation than third world countries who fight over goats. And are you fine with whatever your stated number is of Iraqis dead? Again, considering what we know now. Or is that just the price of war? Would you be fine if that number of Australians were dead if you guys had something other than kangaroos that a country might want and invaded you to take? (Edited to add that no offense is meant to any Australians. I don't think the US has anything of value or satifactory quantity to want to invade over either, unless you count crooked politicians, in which case I would be plenty willing to bet we'd let you have them - no force necessary.)

    I would sleep a hell of a lot better if I knew that those men and women gave their lives for an actual cause such as protecting us from the people who really want to, and are capable of, doing us harm. IMO, that just doesn’t happen to be the case here.

    P.S. Define the American way? Your argument would be alot better if you quoted from a better source than a superman comic.

    Again with the quotes? Have you ever had a thought that wasn’t already nicely written out for you? But since you’re being so obviously obstinate, when I know you know exactly what I’m talking about, do a google search on “The American Way” and whatever you find, add the full text of the Constitution of the United States and this: we are a country of freedom and democracy. What is happening in Iraq is a slap in the face to the people of this country because this war, how it has come about, how it has been allowed to continue, and how it has been run is in direct opposition to everything that America is supposed to stand for. We have violated just about every civil right there is in this quest for oil. We have been lied to, manipulated and killed. And in turn, we have lied, manipulated and killed.

    You can pick apart my defense and opinions all you want in your best little version of captain-of-your-high-school-debate-team. But at the end of the day, I think this “war” is shit. I think the reasons behind it are shit. I think people are dying for no good reason other than plain old greed and deception, and that’s not my idea of what my country is. That’s not what I believe in. I don’t believe that Iraq posed any threat to us or our freedoms. Nothing their country did could sway democracy in the world in any meaningful or threatening way.

    I believe we should focus our energies, money, manpower and tactical know-how on killing Osama Bin Laden and shuttering Al Qaeda altogether (and they’re not in Iraq living near the oil fields, just in case anyone’s still actually looking for them). And I don’t have to have anybody write that out for me to believe those things, nor do I need anyone else to agree to make me feel better or make me feel like my opinion is valid. Although from what I’ve experienced, there are a whole lot of people who seem to agree.
    Last edited by nwgirl; May 31st, 2007 at 01:49 PM.

  4. #34
    Gold Member EvilMonkey's Avatar
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    There is no such thing as plain war. What is happening in Iraq is fundamentally the same that happened in Poland in 1944, Stalingrad in 1943. And that was 'proper' war.

    "It hasn’t meant taking over a country for our own agenda"

    I hate to burst your bubble but all war is fought for an agenda.

    read Clauswitz - nice quote about war being an extension of policy by other means.

    The rosy glasses view is that war is a 'great crusade' is wrong. it has never been ( Particularly on the part of the US ). It has always been about politics and imposing will.

    And without war we probably would still be living in caves. If necessity is the mother of invention then war is the mother of necessity.

    Advances in science, medicine, machinery all come from war. In fact as you type on your PC in reply - That machine is a descendant of the british codebreakers at bletchley park.

    Soldiers since time in memorium have never had enough gear. Henry V looking at 20, 000 french at Agincourt probably had generals whinging to him about not having enough knights. Dowding complained to Churchill about not having enough Spitfires in 1940 too. Its unfortunate but has always been the case.

    Even tactically speaking, an Armoured HMMWV doesnt clear a building. It doesnt fight - it just transports - ultimately someone has to get out and do the job. It also doesnt have underbody armour so most it will make little difference against IED's at the moment.

    And for the record Australia has alot more than Kangaroos. We dont have much oil but we are otherwise one of the most resource rich countries in the world. WW2 would have had a very different outcome if we hadnt stopped the Japanese in 1942 at Kokoda ( without your help too I might add )

    Where was the 'American Way' in 1939? 1940? 1941? as Germany invaded europe and japan raped Asia?

    Every Aussie, Canuck, Brit, Indian, Kiwi, Dutchy, Belgian, Bokker, Polak etc can all say they did their bit for freedom - You just made money off it and invented 'Lend Lease'

    ( P.S. This is why the world ignores your redneck 'we saved your asses in Dubya Dubya tooo' and expectations of gratitude. We paid our Gratuities at a variable interest rate and made you very rich )
    An EM is like a Scientologist - Unhinged and Unbelievable - Now shutup and place your hands on my EM-Meter

  5. #35
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    .... wtf is a bokker?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  6. #36
    Elite Member nwgirl's Avatar
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    We should learn from history, but I'm not sure why you're stuck in the 40's in particular. I wasn't alive in the 40's and without doing research, I can't speak even semi-intelligently about what went on then.

    I do think you're reaching quite a bit with your statement that every advance we have is the result of war, but I guess taking into account some sort of network theory, you could probably connect the dots if you looked hard enough at anything.

    In my life, the US has gone to war to protect democracy, if not for us directly, for a country that if it fell, world-wide democracy would be threatened. Which, in and of itself, is an agenda. But that's an agenda I'm willing to stand behind and support. I am not willing to support this war for oil, and when I connect the dots, that's what seems to be the most obvious reasoning behind the mess that is going on now in Iraq. And I don't think oil is a good enough reason for people to die.

    As for your obvious baiting about how we rednecks bail everyone out all around the world and make money off of it - I don't particularly care. I don't care if other people like my country or appreciate anything we've ever done in the history of the world, because people's memories have proven to be short and revisionistic. I do care however, that I like my country and that I am proud of it. And at this point in my life, due to what is going on and how this administation has run things into the ground, and how people seem to be so engrossed in the menial task of running their everyday lives they have forgotten or don't care about being involved and knowledgable and demanding a change, I'm not proud.

    That was my point. That, and I didn't appreciate your off-handed remark of "so what". I get the feeling you just like to debate and again, are being purposely obstinate to the points I am making and refusing to draw any conclusions other than exactly what I have written. In my experience that never goes anywhere, rather quickly. So I am done with this communication.

  7. #37
    Elite Member Born In A Brothel's Avatar
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    Advances in science, medicine, machinery all come from war. In fact as you type on your PC in reply - That machine is a descendant of the british codebreakers at bletchley park.
    Al Gore invented the internet without any casualties.

  8. #38
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    What about all the lives lost to World of Warcraft? All those promising nerds..
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  9. #39
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonham View Post
    Um, does anyone care about the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis?
    We're talking probably millions of orphaned children, raped and tortured women, not to mention all the dead husbands, wives, mothers, fathers and of course the thousands of dead children.
    Oops sorry, forgot that brown skinned Middle Eastern Muslims are the world's second most expendable people behind Africans.
    Sad, but unfortunately true. Except when oil is involved that is.

  10. #40
    Elite Member Mariesoleil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Born In A Brothel View Post
    Al Gore invented the internet without any casualties.
    Umm...no he didn't.

    CERN (Conseil Européen pour la Recherche Nucléaire) invented the internet.
    "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the most accessible and wisest of counsellors, and the most patient of teachers."

  11. #41
    Elite Member Born In A Brothel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariesoleil View Post
    Umm...no he didn't.

    CERN (Conseil Européen pour la Recherche Nucléaire) invented the internet.
    Yes he did. He told me so.

  12. #42
    Elite Member Mariesoleil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Born In A Brothel View Post
    Yes he did. He told me so.
    He lied lol.
    "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the most accessible and wisest of counsellors, and the most patient of teachers."

  13. #43
    Elite Member Born In A Brothel's Avatar
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    What! That jerk!

    *kicks old rusty lockbox*

    And to think I voted for him for a pack of smokes!

  14. #44
    Elite Member Mariesoleil's Avatar
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    ^^
    "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the most accessible and wisest of counsellors, and the most patient of teachers."

  15. #45
    Gold Member EvilMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    .... wtf is a bokker?
    A Springbok.

    A South African
    An EM is like a Scientologist - Unhinged and Unbelievable - Now shutup and place your hands on my EM-Meter

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