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Thread: Barack Obama seemed in favor of gay marriage in 1996.. flip flop ?

  1. #16
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok View Post
    It worked well up here. There was some resistance (from the conservatives, of course) to gay marriage.. the weak spined Liberals punted the case to the Supreme Court, hoping THEY would decide for the government.. the Supreme Court just looked it over and told Parliament that it would be unconstitutional to refuse gay marriage.. and then kicked it right back and told the political parties THEY had to pass it or not.

    So they held a vote, and naturally most conservatives opposed it, but everybody else WITH A BRAIN let it pass handily. The Liberals finally bit the bullet.

    Since then, the sky hasn't fallen and churches haven't been forced to marry anybody outside of their silly doctrines.
    The U.S. is more heavily tied to it's religious beliefs than Canada is. The Bible has a lot of clout at all levels of American society. So, the issue of gay marriage isn't going to be resolved anytime soon. As long as the majority of the country is deadset against the idea, neither the President or Congress are going to push the issue. And the Supreme Court isn't going to get involved either.

  2. #17
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    It will take courage, something that appears to be sorely lacking
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  3. #18
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Strategy is the key word.

    Obama would never have been where he is today supporting gay marriage. Strategy wins.

    With the majority of the country against gay marriage, not civil unions, the use of the word marriage, no high ranking official is going to ruin his or her career backing it.

    He is right when he contends civil unions could pass, but the word marriage will kill the initiative. No one who can do anything to get it passed is going risk their careers.

    It may not be right, but that is the situation. What is it going to take for the gay movement to realize no amount of courage, protesting, and demanding is going to change the fact no power source is going to commit suicide by backing this?



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    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Eventually it will. That's why you keep trying.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  5. #20
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Eventually, anything can happen. The question is when will eventually come? If the current atmosphere is any indication, it won't be soon.



  6. #21
    Gold Member ymeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Eventually, anything can happen. The question is when will eventually come? If the current atmosphere is any indication, it won't be soon.
    Lol, the old 'not time yet' schtick, same thing civil rights activists heard at every turn, same thing Obama probably heard. Way to carry on a grand old tradition, two feet stuck in the mud while people politely step around you and march forward. You probably will of course one day talk about how supportive you were of getting gay marriage passed despite incredible odds. Why be forward-thinking when you can be mundane and then change your story once the work is done by others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Eventually, anything can happen. The question is when will eventually come? If the current atmosphere is any indication, it won't be soon.
    Change is happening. The MA legislature voted overwhelmingly against putting up a Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriage on the ballot. Five years ago, they were shocked and upset that the court "forced" gay marriage. Yes, Prop 8 passed, but only narrowly. 10 years ago, it wouldn't have been close. And now, you have Arnold and Jerry Brown against it.

    I think and hope that a generation from now gay marriage will be liked interracial marriage is today.

  8. #23
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    STOP TRYING TO MAKE GAY THINGS BL:ACK!!@!#Oneone!!@eleventy
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  9. #24
    Elite Member RevellingInSane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymeman View Post
    Lol, the old 'not time yet' schtick, same thing civil rights activists heard at every turn, same thing Obama probably heard. Way to carry on a grand old tradition, two feet stuck in the mud while people politely step around you and march forward. You probably will of course one day talk about how supportive you were of getting gay marriage passed despite incredible odds. Why be forward-thinking when you can be mundane and then change your story once the work is done by others.
    You just want to see a schtick. The quote you chose in no way said to stop fighting for the rights. I clearly said eventually those rights will be granted, but when the government would be willing to do it is in question. Do tell how the hell that is even insinuates gays should stop fighting?

    Here you go. Point it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by RevellingInSane View Post
    Eventually, anything can happen. The question is when will eventually come? If the current atmosphere is any indication, it won't be soon.
    Didn't think so. You don't like the truth, which is regardless of what is asked for today, no power source is going to touch it and no one knows when the governmental atmosphere will change enough to a, give someone the courage to push it into the faces of the lawmakers, and b, do it successfully.

    Also, I have stated I support same-sex civil unions. Where the hell have you been? I have clearly laid what I do support, civil unions, with what I don't support, which is gay rights which in any way would infringe on the rights, including religious, not wants, of others, such as any gay couple challenging the right of a church official or property to refuse a ceremony.

    This isn't a case of having two feet stuck in the mud and people walking around you. This is someone with his head in the mud who wants to label anyone whom he sees as an opponent a bigot without getting all the facts and admitting the person is correct in her assertions it will not happen at this very moment. Take off the muck covered rose-colored glasses already and look around.

    Pointing out the facts which can influence the next move is bigotry? That's funny, it is usually referred to as research or recon.

    The key is to take away all the challenges, assure people the slippery slope will not happen, and ensure the laws are worded to give gays the rights while not leaving anyone open to have their rights infringed upon. How difficult is that for you to comprehend? Or is it, fuck everyone else. If they eventually get screwed, who cares, we got what we wanted? I wouldn't support that for either side.

    Quote Originally Posted by visitor42 View Post
    Change is happening. The MA legislature voted overwhelmingly against putting up a Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriage on the ballot. Five years ago, they were shocked and upset that the court "forced" gay marriage. Yes, Prop 8 passed, but only narrowly. 10 years ago, it wouldn't have been close. And now, you have Arnold and Jerry Brown against it.

    I think and hope that a generation from now gay marriage will be liked interracial marriage is today.
    Gay anti-discrimination laws, including DADT being repealed, will happen. Probably very soon. As soon as the religious right understand civil unions will not affect the church in any way, such as being challenged for discrimination, you will see the opposition fade.

    One vital step, which would speed up the process, is to make a conscious effort to stop using the word marriage. Sure it will be the same thing, so does it even matter what it is called, if you can get the same rights? To-ma-to, to-mah-to. Who cares? Do what it takes to get it. you didn't learn that from the black civil rights movement, which is exactly the same as this one? Connotation is very powerful, as the right wing supporters have proven.



  10. #25
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymeman View Post
    Lol, the old 'not time yet' schtick, same thing civil rights activists heard at every turn, same thing Obama probably heard. Way to carry on a grand old tradition, two feet stuck in the mud while people politely step around you and march forward. You probably will of course one day talk about how supportive you were of getting gay marriage passed despite incredible odds. Why be forward-thinking when you can be mundane and then change your story once the work is done by others.
    I don't think it's about not being forward thinking. If you look at all of the civil rights struggles, including the women's movement, people demanded equality then and there but it didn't happen in the timeframe that they wanted it to happen. It never does. Even today, despite all of the progress, there still isn't full equality for minorities or women because racism and sexism still exist. So, even if gay marriage were approved tomorrow, homophobia would still be a barrier to full equality. If the civil rights and the women's movement have shown anything they've shown that it's always an ongoing struggle that never ends.

  11. #26
    Elite Member sputnik's Avatar
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    ^^^
    true.
    it's also not a change that will happen by popular demand. you can't count on majorities to fight for minority rights.
    IMO the only way gays will get equal rights is through the supreme court - it will have to be forced on the population.
    gay rights isn't an issue enough people really care about passionately to make it interesting enough for a president to be vocal about, at least not in the US where a big chunk of the population is socially conservative.

    if you passed everything by a vote, desegregation wouldn't have happened, abortion wouldn't be legal, and you could never abolish the death penalty. democracy doesn't mean majority rule on every single issue - that's just tyranny of the masses. you need checks and balances and part of that is a check on the majority to make sure minorities are protected and given equal rights.
    I'm open to everything. When you start to criticise the times you live in, your time is over. - Karl Lagerfeld

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    Both of my daughters (17 and 14) think of gay marriage rights as kind of a no-brainer. For my oldest daughter, who's very politically active, it is the civil rights issue of her generation. For my younger daughter, who is not so political, it's more of a "why not?" thing--no big deal.

    I remember my niece at her bat mitzvah saying how important it was to listen to the elders, but that the elders could be wrong and we had to have the courage to change, and that is how she felt about gay marriage. That was 5 years ago.

    So, I feel confident that gay marriage rights will happen. But I also understand that it is unfair to ask gay people to wait for other people to be ready for them to have full rights.

  13. #28
    Elite Member kingcap72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik View Post
    ^^^
    true.
    it's also not a change that will happen by popular demand. you can't count on majorities to fight for minority rights.
    IMO the only way gays will get equal rights is through the supreme court - it will have to be forced on the population.
    gay rights isn't an issue enough people really care about passionately to make it interesting enough for a president to be vocal about, at least not in the US where a big chunk of the population is socially conservative.

    if you passed everything by a vote, desegregation wouldn't have happened, abortion wouldn't be legal, and you could never abolish the death penalty. democracy doesn't mean majority rule on every single issue - that's just tyranny of the masses. you need checks and balances and part of that is a check on the majority to make sure minorities are protected and given equal rights.
    Agree with the entire post. Spot on.

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    If Obama had publicly expressed support for gay marriage, we'd be watching McCain's inauguration on Tuesday.

    That's the sad truth.

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    Elite Member bychance's Avatar
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    Face it Grimm, Democrats can't get elected by supporting gay marriage; and most of them do.

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