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Thread: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

  1. #121
    Elite Member burnt_toast's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    Excuse me? What America does affects the ENTIRE PLANET. I have every right to spout off, and in actuality I have even MORE of a right since I have no way of affecting the internal processes of the damned country. America can affect MY world, but I can't affect America.

    That gives me more right than you to be pissed off.
    I absolutely agree! American policies and the actions of our administration effect the entire globe. We don't live in a bubble - all of our actions impact other countries and their residents (many times negatively) yet these citizens have no recourse to vote or change the US government in any way ... all they can do is express their opinions, it's all they have.

    I don't always agree with Grimm, but I think that there is alot to be gained by paying attention to the opinions non-Americans have about our country and policies. It's not reasonable to shoot down anyone's right to express an opinion just because you don't like what you're reading. Even when I think Grimm is a bit off his rocker, I can still find validity in his points and can respect that as a neighboring country, Canada should be paying attention to the US and their residents should 'know their neighbors.'

  2. #122
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    *pitches himself off his rocker*
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  3. #123
    Gold Member Delphinium's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    Excuse me? What America does affects the ENTIRE PLANET. I have every right to spout off, and in actuality I have even MORE of a right since I have no way of affecting the internal processes of the damned country. America can affect MY world, but I can't affect America.

    That gives me more right than you to be pissed off.
    now that is a load of poo if I ever heard one. From what I hear in the news you Canadians had best get it together up there as you now have what appears to be a serious terrorist infestation and they aren't going to stop with just using you to cross into the US ,they had plans to murder not only your PM but also many other totally innocent people.

    But believe me, if the rubber meets the proverbial road, most countries of the world come to the United States when they need bailing out or defending. Funny how American blood is "good enough" to spill to save their butts but not worthy of the respect and honorable friendship it deserves ahead of time.

  4. #124
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    now that is a load of poo if I ever heard one.
    Actually it's not, it's the result of being the only 'superpower' left on the planet. It's a fact, get over it.

    From what I hear in the news you Canadians had best get it together up there as you now have what appears to be a serious terrorist infestation and they aren't going to stop with just using you to cross into the US ,they had plans to murder not only your PM but also many other totally innocent people.
    Infestation? We arrested a few thousand people less than you have locked up in that Cuban concentration camp of yours.. 17 people in one spot does not an infestation make. We didn't panic, we didn't freak out.. we didn't build secret bases to torture 'suspects' at, and we didn't swager halfway across the planet in a blustery show of force that only a child would engage in.

    We're more like the Brits than you, modesty prevents us from making a loud noise over things.

    But believe me, if the rubber meets the proverbial road, most countries of the world come to the United States when they need bailing out or defending.
    Actually most countries go to NATO or the UN in the last 60 years. Speaking of bailing out, who will bail you out when the Chinese forclose on 10 + trillion of debt you owe them?

    Funny how American blood is "good enough" to spill to save their butts but not worthy of the respect and honorable friendship it deserves ahead of time.
    LOL do you base the next few thousand years on 1 or 2 good deeds 60 years ago? Honey, friendship is earned and kept up. Friendship doesn't simply thrive on its own, and having done something helpful a few generations ago will not excuse present behavior no matter how much you think it will. Lately America has been a coked up, drunk-ass, fat neighborhood bully. Maybe when America checks itself into rehab, stops insulting "Old Europe", and maybe picks up the phone to call estranged younger brothers who look on with worry (Canada) the friendships will come back.

    Expecting friendship while acting like an asshole is what we call DELUSION.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  5. #125
    Hit By Ban Bus! DirtyPool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by JungleMonkey
    now that is a load of poo if I ever heard one. From what I hear in the news you Canadians had best get it together up there as you now have what appears to be a serious terrorist infestation and they aren't going to stop with just using you to cross into the US ,they had plans to murder not only your PM but also many other totally innocent people.

    But believe me, if the rubber meets the proverbial road, most countries of the world come to the United States when they need bailing out or defending. Funny how American blood is "good enough" to spill to save their butts but not worthy of the respect and honorable friendship it deserves ahead of time.
    Well said, I agree 100%.

    grimm, as for the china remark...that's easy, we will expose their human rights record for what it really is and then we'll tell them to get in there and make us a ham sandwich and quit whining.
    Last edited by DirtyPool; June 13th, 2006 at 06:03 PM.

  6. #126
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Yes, agree despite the overwhelming documented evidence against such conclusions.. whee, delusion and fantasy is fun isn't it?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  7. #127
    Gold Member lovely bones's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    I wouldn't go that far, but the standards used now are a hell of a lot lower.. they're pretty desperate. They're signing up autistic and mentally incompetent people, convicts, you name it..
    Based on what? Where are you getting your data? Your finger to the breeze? Your determined hatefulness toward America and its armed forces?

    You're entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to bash those of us who've chosen to serve a country of which you are not a citizen.
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  8. #128
    Elite Member Lobelia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    I think every person in the world has a right to have opinions about every nation in the world. In this age of communication, we're all instantly connected to & affected by each other.

    I remember when I believed that my country was honorable & respectable, but our honor & respectability has been eclipsed by our arrogance. Maybe it's always been that way, and I've just realized it. Dunno. But I gotta say, I agree with Grimm that we are acting like a bully. I want to be proud of America again. We have a lot to be proud of.

    To repeat myself, I strongly believe that if you don't think you're capable of putting your personal beliefs aside & following orders, you should NOT join the military. Aside from some lunatics, extremists & weak people, I am terribly proud of our military forces. They train hard & work hard & make huge sacrifices while not making a lot of money. They sacrifice many personal freedoms that the rest of us have, including the freedom to defy our employers & quit. I cannot stress this enough-----------> They know this going in!

    About the training thing, Grimmlok, think about this. Military service, aside from war, basically consists of training for war in one way or another. There are some exceptions, such as military intelligence (insert obligatory joke here) which actively works to collect information, or military police (again, insert joke) & some others, but a huge part of belonging to the military is various types of training. I'll bet the farm that this lieutenant didn't sign up, do some training, and then start a job, per se, that had nothing to do with continuing to train & prepare for war. That's why it doesn't really fly to say that he paid for his training by doing his job. I'd like to know exactly what his MOS is. (Maybe it's in an article somewhere but my superior scanning skills let me down.)
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  9. #129
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    I will dig out a long, detailed article in Vanity Fair (Sept 05 I think) about US military recruitment tactics. I know VF is anti-Bush so it's not an entirely unbiased article, but the interviews with real current and former recruitment officers and the real families of totally unsuitable kids who were signed up make worrying reading.
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  10. #130
    Gold Member Delphinium's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by lovely bones
    Based on what? Where are you getting your data? Your finger to the breeze? Your determined hatefulness toward America and its armed forces?

    You're entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to bash those of us who've chosen to serve a country of which you are not a citizen.
    exactly. also I love how Grimm uses terms like "cuban concentration camps" and the like. As far as I can tell the terrorists in that camp are being treated much much much better than our soldiers would be if the situation was reversed. America like it or not DOES play by the rules, more so than any middle eastern nation.

    But of course all the good that America and Americans do is going to be ignored by anti-American types. It doesn't fit with their stereotypical view of us.

  11. #131
    Gold Member lovely bones's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    I will dig out a long, detailed article in Vanity Fair (Sept 05 I think) about US military recruitment tactics. I know VF is anti-Bush so it's not an entirely unbiased article, but the interviews with real current and former recruitment officers and the real families of totally unsuitable kids who were signed up make worrying reading.
    I believe I've read that article, the one about the Marine recruiter who committed suicide because he couldn't hit the quotas?

    A couple of my friends were recruiters - this is another one of those "undesirable but necessary" assignments, by the way - I agree that recruiting tactics are not above the board and are in some cases 'unscrupulous.' But this is not a phenomenon unique to the military. I could make the same argument about many of our esteemed global, "Fortune 500" companies.

    I don't agree at all with some of the comments posted in this forum, but I read them so I can learn and try to understand other perspectives. I will not, however, stand idly by for comments that [the US is] outfitting our armed forces with miscreants, "autistics" and "mentally incompentent people" -- it's over the top and unbecoming of what could be an otherwise rational debate here.

    I am terribly proud of our military forces. They train hard & work hard & make huge sacrifices while not making a lot of money. They sacrifice many personal freedoms that the rest of us have, including the freedom to defy our employers & quit. I cannot stress this enough-----------> They know this going in!
    I appreciate this. I chose to serve, I'd proudly do it again. I understand though, that this is not a life or belief to which everyone subscribes. But at least in the US we have a choice, and I served to protect that choice.

    Let the LT dude use his legal maneuverings to get out of his duty. He is certainly entitled to due process. He can't cry foul and expect to be let out of his obligations because he suddenly decided to have a "crisis of conscience" after having taken everything else the military provided him in terms of training and education.

    Unless he's one of us "mentally incompetent" types. He certainly may well find himself a "convict" eventually, though.
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  12. #132
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by lovely bones
    Based on what?
    Articles garnered from various news sources, government websites, etc. Do you live in a bubble or something? Recruitment numbers are so low they aren't meeting quotas and havent been for about 2 years. It's common knowledge.


    Where are you getting your data?
    See above.

    Your finger to the breeze?
    Your head in the sand?


    Your determined hatefulness toward America and its armed forces?
    Oh here we go.. "You hate 'Murrica! You hate the army! You hate (insert stupid emotionalism in place of rational conversation here to cover up intellectual bankruptcy and topical ignorance)!"

    You're entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to bash those of us who've chosen to serve a country of which you are not a citizen.
    I'll criticize what I like, and if you don't agree with it, too fucking bad. I'm entitled to do what the fuck I want, little mrs Eva Braun.

    Quote Originally Posted by JungleMonkey
    exactly. also I love how Grimm uses terms like "cuban concentration camps" and the like.
    It's a concentration camp. It's not a forced-labor camp, but it's a concentration camp. It fits the very definition. Educate yourself.

    As far as I can tell the terrorists in that camp are being treated much much much better than our soldiers would be if the situation was reversed.
    I'm sorry, please use the proper terminology: THESE PEOPLE HAVE NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH TERRORISM. They have not been charged with ANYTHING. They're there merely as suspects.

    Sure, some of them probably are terrorists but if that's the case, put them on trial, give them legal representation, and be done with.

    Unfortunately, that's not happening. Why do you think they're being held in Cuba, hmm? Ever wonder? It's because it's outside of US territorial judicial reach. it's a limbo where your government can do what they want.

    For god's sake, if you're going to argue a topic then do a little reading on it. Turn off FOX news.

    America like it or not DOES play by the rules, more so than any middle eastern nation.
    Right, which is why the Geneva Conventions have been ignored and referred to as "quaint, mere suggestions". That's why there are CIA black sites and extraordinary renditions. That's why Abu Grhaib happened.

    The ignorance being displayed here is astounding. You're still operating under the "We're the good guys, we do no wrong!" fantasy, despite the few items I just mentioned out of THOUSANDS of misdeeds. Do you simply wish them away, or pretend they don't exist or something?

    But of course all the good that America and Americans do is going to be ignored by anti-American types. It doesn't fit with their stereotypical view of us.
    Yes, because OBSERVING behavior just punches a neat hole in your America The Pure fantasy.

    America does good. Unfortunately, any good will that's built up by those good deeds is torn down the next day by some stupid, cruel act.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  13. #133
    Hit By Ban Bus! DirtyPool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    ^ i believe the latest information on recruiting efforts of the army states they have met their goal for 12 months now:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060609/...y_recruiting_1

  14. #134
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Omg, I love you now.

    You backed up your statement. You looked things up!

    *swoon*

    Then it looks like they're back on track, unless those goals were met by lowering standards to the ones that were discussed (and posted about) before.

    Then that wouldn't be much of an achievement. However, let us hope that the whole "recruiting autistic kids, the mentally infirm and convicts" phase has passed.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  15. #135
    Elite Member Lobelia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    Omg, I love you now.

    *swoon*
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