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Thread: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

  1. #61
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    LOL was it too long for you?
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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    Gold Member Delphinium's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    I would respect this guy alot more if he had refused to join at all or dodged the draft. but he so far benefitted and took home a pay check from the military, he knew what he was potentially getting into when he signed the papers. I say hog tie him and ship him out on the next flight to the sand.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    I just read the article and haven't changed my view at all. You can't sign up and then pick and choose which wars you are prepared to fight based on your personal opinions. I can just see it during morning parade "OK men, we have been deployed to Iraq, hands up who wants to go, the rest of you can stay here and play paintball".
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  4. #64
    Gold Member lovely bones's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    ^^^ Yes! We're also not talking about a 17-year old just outta high school "who got coerced and didn't know any better." Last I checked, one would have to have a college degree or close to it, be about 21 or older to even hit the rank of LT. The bar is supposedly higher for LTs because they're expected lead. So I still can't fathom how this person got to where he is and expects to bag out.

    "OK men, we have been deployed to Iraq, hands up who wants to go, the rest of you can stay here and play paintball".
    A*O, I'll have to steal that one.
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  5. #65
    Bronze Member ultrafabviolet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by lovely bones
    ^^^The bar is supposedly higher for LTs because they're expected lead. So I still can't fathom how this person got to where he is and expects to bag out.
    The Lt. is a disgrace to the Army, his rank, the post, and men in general. Ft. Lewis is home to some of the finest, most highly skilled military professionals in the world: the storied 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne), 2d Battalion (Rangers), and 75th Infantry among them. This is a base where Green Berets and Maroon berets are the norm, not the exception. They are the Warrior Elite of the warrior elite.

    The Lt. would be an abomination on any base. He is an odious abhorrence at Lewis.

    So just how did a coward like this score his bar? Simple: his mouth wrote checks that his heart could not cover. When the promissory note came due he defaulted, declaring bankruptcy of commitment, conviction, and character. The guy doesn’t even have the intestinal fortitude to cover the interest: dignity.

    This is symptomatic of a subculture in which some soldiers--those who choose the military as a "job" rather than those who make the military their profession and their service a response to a "higher calling"-- have come to count on their lawyers rather than their DIs to "keep them alive." Not good. Then again, having a guy like the Lt. in question next to you when the SHTF can be to your advantage: "Lt. Parapet."

    My hunch is were he to find himself "face down and intimate" in the Sandbox, he'd have but one "issue" with the war and that would be, to paraphrase Gen. Patton, making sure that the other SOB died for his country.

    Articles 77-134 of the UCMJ exist for guys like the Lt. I am confident that he, along with every armchair lawyer and first-year PSI student in the country, will soon be all-too familiar with Article 92. Time will tell whether this makes it to a full-blown Courts Martial. I'm popping corn and pulling up a chair just the same.

    It is peculiar how the same individuals who so vituperatively decry any and all perceived blurring of the "military/civilian boundary" (i.e., the disciples of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878) are the same who so vehemently shove their civilian lawyers across that same holy [sic] line when a DISGRUNTLED military man or woman, as a direct result of his or her own choices and actions, finds his/her withers in the pucker zone.

    Those who demand a "fence" need to understand that the same fence that keeps the military out also keeps the civilians in, and vice versa. Save the “refusal on the basis of moral principles” BS for someone else. Those seeking to convince the world to believe "otherwise" would do well to refrain from what has become a boorish diatribe of sophomoric angst and instead engage themselves in tangible pursuits.

    Vi
    Don't be ridiculous, Stephen: wearing a helmet does not make it "safe," and the answer is still "no."

  6. #66
    Hit By Ban Bus! DirtyPool's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Vi, I like your style.

  7. #67
    Bronze Member ultrafabviolet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyPool
    Vi, I like your style.
    Same.

    Things took a sudden turn for the better once I discovered the "ignore list" button.

    I love this site.

    Vi
    Don't be ridiculous, Stephen: wearing a helmet does not make it "safe," and the answer is still "no."

  8. #68
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    It's still hilarious that you're all ascribing cowardice to him, like he's afraid to go... excrpt that nowhere is that stated in any capacity.

    I think you're all ASSUMING based on certain prejudices, it's very interesting.

    It's like you can't actually fathom someone from the military, whom you have defended vigorously againt charges of being brainwashed robots, having an actual crisis of conscience and ethics.

    So toe the line or you're not a good military man, or stand up for what you think is right, not be a robot, and suddenly you're judged a coward.

    Hypocrisy! I love it.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  9. #69
    Gold Member lovely bones's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    I think you're all ASSUMING based on certain prejudices, it's very interesting.

    It's like you can't actually fathom someone from the military, whom you have defended vigorously againt charges of being brainwashed robots, having an actual crisis of conscience and ethics.

    So toe the line or you're not a good military man, or stand up for what you think is right, not be a robot, and suddenly you're judged a coward.

    Hypocrisy! I love it.
    The reason anyone is "assuming" anything is probably the suspicious timing of this person's "crisis of conscience and ethics."

    Just because a person has this crisis of conscience, it does not excuse him/her from his/her previous obligations. When you sign on the dotted line - make a commitment - you must live up to it...if or when the time comes.

    I don't know what constitutes "cowardice." Call it hypocrisy, whatever. I will refrain from getting personal or resorting to inflamatory language even though the phrase "being a robot" is personally insulting.

    This situation exemplifies the meaning of honor and being good to your word. If you (*general* you) disagree with that or any other particular code, then fine - don't sign up, don't give us your word and don't do it. There is no problem then.

    But to make a promise upon which other lives may actually depend, then back out of it - that's dishonourable.

    You cannot judge or ridicule those who choose a different path -- not if you believe or say that you are liberal-minded or tolerant. THAT is hypocrisy.
    Claude os, aperi oculos!

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    It's still hilarious that you're all ascribing cowardice to him, like he's afraid to go... excrpt that nowhere is that stated in any capacity.

    I think you're all ASSUMING based on certain prejudices, it's very interesting.

    It's like you can't actually fathom someone from the military, whom you have defended vigorously againt charges of being brainwashed robots, having an actual crisis of conscience and ethics.

    So toe the line or you're not a good military man, or stand up for what you think is right, not be a robot, and suddenly you're judged a coward.

    Hypocrisy! I love it.
    I'd say then join the circus! There is no room in a time of war for someone to have a 'crisis of conscience and ethics'. I know I wouldn't want that fool on my team!

  11. #71
    Hit By Ban Bus! pacific breeze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    I couldn't disagree more. The kind of rah-rah patriotism, follow the leader at any cost and even if they make no sense, has caused the world, including the U.S., innumerable problems including the current mess in Iraq. Anyone who even dared question the wisdom of illegally invading Iraq and breaking the non-existent link between Saddam/Al Qaida and WMD's was called a terrorist themselves, remember? Well, we proved to be right.

    Clear heads win the day, not patriotic hysteria. Plus, he's not "letting anyone down" on the battlefield -- he's saying I can't do this in good conscience, so don't send me in order NOT to be put in a position of compromising anyone's safety. I find that more honourable than going and then not doing your job.

    I agree that people should live up to their commitments, and I don't know every detail of this case (and neither does anyone else posting here), but I believe in giving him the benefit of a doubt. What is really gained by forcing someone to fight who has made an intelligent and personally brave decision -- he obviously knew the shitstorm and charges of cowardice that would ensue but did it anyway -- to go to Iraq?

    LOTS of military people share his views having been to Iraq and witnessing the pointless carnage against military AND civilians -- don't forget civilian deaths vastly outnumber military deaths. Given the bullshit reasons for the war in the first place, I can't really blame anybody for not wanting to put their life on the line and to possibly murder/kill/maim innocent civilians to enrich the coffers of Halliburton and Bush's oil buddies. Let's get real here.

  12. #72
    Bronze Member ultrafabviolet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    The best thing about the “Universal soldier,” the mindless, unfeeling, unemotional, wholly logic-driven killing machine is that it is impervious to “slings and arrows,” both in the literal and figurative sense.


    Oh, but to command such “model soldiers!” Hardly.

    Instead, commanders are charged with the solemn responsibility of sending into battle tragically flawed, conflicted lumps of flesh, fear, pride, courage, hatred, compassion, and “obstinate questioning.” They yearn, bleed, laugh, cry, regret, gasp, wince, withdraw, reach out, and celebrate even the most ridiculously small of fleeting personal victories in between the most final of deaths.









    Inglorious and “Magnificent Bastards” are they, honorable warriors who quietly suffer eyes that have seen too much and hearts torn between their love of family and their duty to God, Country, and Corps.



    It is humbling in the extreme to stand in the cool, long, shadows cast by giants . . . giants who will look a man square in the eye and with unflinching humility say, ‘I’m just a regular guy,” or “I’m just an ordinary woman.”

    If only such were the case.

    These are extraordinarily selfless individuals, and I love and admire each and every one of them to a fault. Those who have not stood, crawled, fallen, and knelt beside them. . . . There are no words. There is no “can only imagine.”

    For those of us who have stood, crawled, fallen, and knelt beside them. . . .
    There is no need for words.



    Words will not change the hardened heart and closed mind of the individual whose rash thoughts and insipient grousing are born of a place where love of something greater than himself is neither valued nor understood. Such an individual is an entity unto himself. He exists alone and apart from the whole. His anger and insolence are but the manifestation of his ignorance and frustration and, ultimately, his self-awareness of his station in life. Words and not deeds are the measure of his life. Pity him, for he is all he has.

    As for the rest, continue to live by the means for the sake of the ends. Know that there is a God, and He is just. Pick up your Cross and bear it with pride—because you can, because it is yours.

    And as for what lies at the heart of this thread, I ask myself what it is that I would say to the eight year-old boy as his father is laid to rest, the flag folded and handed to his mother “on behalf of a grateful nation.”



    “That folded flag is your father. When lesser men sat down, he stood up.”


    Vi
    Don't be ridiculous, Stephen: wearing a helmet does not make it "safe," and the answer is still "no."

  13. #73
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    ^^ does anybody get the feeling all this waxing poetic doesn't really address what i just pointed out?

    Wonderful imagery, right out of a pamphlet, recruiting videos, long tomes on war and sacrifice..I mean, it's all just fluffy wordplay.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

  14. #74
    Gold Member Delphinium's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmlok
    It's still hilarious that you're all ascribing cowardice to him, like he's afraid to go... excrpt that nowhere is that stated in any capacity.

    I think you're all ASSUMING based on certain prejudices, it's very interesting.

    It's like you can't actually fathom someone from the military, whom you have defended vigorously againt charges of being brainwashed robots, having an actual crisis of conscience and ethics.

    So toe the line or you're not a good military man, or stand up for what you think is right, not be a robot, and suddenly you're judged a coward.

    Hypocrisy! I love it.
    oh please. this guy is the hypocrite and yes he's a coward. i have a feeling that he probably accepted money for college in exchange for military service and figured he would have a nice cushy 6 year "job" telling enlisted guys what to do.

    Well the time has come for this "gentleman" to pay the piper, i say lock him up or send him to Iraq. and demote him as well.

  15. #75
    Elite Member Grimmlok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Army lieutenant refuses to go to Iraq

    LOL why is he a coward? Again, quantify that statement with ANYTHING that's remotely substantial.
    I am from the American CIA and I have a radio in my head. I am going to kill you.

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